Super Sanin 3
09-24-2011, 10:51 AM
This is basically like the latest feat thread except i wanted to expand it a bit more... sorry if it's already made
So here you just give each character a little summary of his/her skills then go on to say the feats and flaws of each character, so it can help in debates more instead of looking it up. Don't know how far this will go but meh w/e, add yours and i'll add it to the OP. I'll do a quick one on Rock Lee
Rock Lee:Rock Lee has a slight problem, he has no talent in ninjutsu or genjutsu to speak of. Despite this, he has made his way to become a powerful ninja that specializes in taijutsu and speed alone, with the exception of the eight celestial gates which greatly increase both his speed and strength. When drunk, Lee's moves become unpredictable, being able to make his moves unreadable even by extremely proficient taijutsu specialists like Kimimaro.
Feats:Naruto rushes towards Lee only to miss his punch, then attempts a kick with his hands on the ground but is easily dodged again and is responded with Lee's Leaf Violent Wind, which sends Naruto flying into the wall greatly damaged. Showing Lee's taijutsu abilities (weights on)(37/8-37/9)
Sasuke runs towards Lee, then Lee uses Leaf Spinning Wind, Sasuke ducks to avoid the kick and is met with another kick from below, which Sasuke cannot dodge and is forced to block, then is hit with ANOTHER attack that Sasuke cannot even block to the face and is sent back a few meters. Sasuke activates his sharingan and runs towards Lee again, only to get kicked straight in the chin and sent flying upwards, which Lee then responds by preparing his Primary Lotus, Sasuke unable to defend himself. (37/11-37/18)
While the sound ninja attempt to kill Sakura (they were rushing in midair) Rock Lee intercepts them by surprise with a Leaf Spinning Wind attack, sending them all back. Dosu attempts to attack Lee in close quarters with his punch in midair but Lee pulls up a huge tree root with his bare strength and blocks it. Lee then gets the idea that since he's at a 3 vs 1 disadvantage, he has to take a risk and beat them all quickly at full strength. Using the first gate, Lee stops Dosu's upcoming rush with a flash of his foot that sends him in the air for his Primary Lotus. He covers him in tape and leaves him defenseless as Lee executes his move. His partner however softens the dirt under him using sound and leaves him unharmed. Because of the injuries Rock Lee barely dodges the attack from Dosu again, but is hit anyways because of the sound range. When Dosu goes for Sakura Lee is able to attempt another Leaf Spinning Wind but is unable to complete it due to the pain of the sound before and is forced to block a punch but is still hit with the sound. Lee is in no condition to fight afterwards.
Weighted Lee rushes towards Gaara and attacks with Leaf Spinning Wind only to get blocked by the sand. Lee is able to escape a close encounter with the sand and then tries another blitz, only to have his punch and kicks easily deflected by the automatic wall of sand. Lee sumersaults backwards to avoid a sand attack and jumps onto the finger of the stage's statue. Finally, he takes off his weights which make huge explosions when hitting the ground. Lee casually reaches Gaara and attacks with repeated attacks, missing only by a small margin each time. He finally lands an attack by jumping and kicking the top of Gaara's head giving him a cut. Gaara's sand cannot keep up and Gaara sustains yet another hit later on. This all leads to nothing for Lee though, as Gaara's armor saves him from any real damage, and Lee not knowing the chakra consumption it takes, goes for a strong attack to break that defense. Lee then activates the first gate and kicks Gaara many times into the air to keep a safe distance from the sand, however he winced from the pain of it and gives Gaara time to use a substitution to save himself. Afterwards Lee cannot dodge the sand and is forced to block the attack thanks to the drawbacks of the attack. Lee gets battered around a bit before he decides to use open more of the gates: Opening the second to renew himself and then the third and fourth to sufficiently increase in power. He rushes at Gaara while destroying the concrete floor while Gaara doesn't have time to know what happened. Lee then executes his Extreme Lotus, which attacks the Gaara with extremely high power and speed. But alas, Gaara survives the fall by turning his gourd into sand itself and cushioning the fall, much like vs Dosu. Gaara then attacks a defenseless Lee with his sand and uses Sand Coffin, breaking his arm and leg completely.
Meh if it gets too big i'll cut out the fodder stuff, gonna wait to see if this actually goes on
09-24-2011, 10:56 AM
I'm just going to compare him to Sasuke lol.
There's nothing basic about Neji's Taijutsu. Sasuke's intellect will make no difference, as even in the event that Sasuke is able to physically avoid Neji's Juken attack, even those missed strikes will cause severe damage. That's what makes Juken so dangerous. Sasuke won't be able to pull off the moves he used on Kakashi (who wasn't even atempting to attack back), being that even when Neji is not on the offensive, the chakra he emits can damage Sasuke. Think of it as a similar principle to when Naruto used his Biju Cloak against Sasuke in their battle before Shippuuden. Although Sasuke was able to read both Naruto's physical movements, as well as the movements of the chakra itself, he had difficulty avoiding both. Neji isn't whipping out any huge chakra arms lol, but when in close range, Neji can attack with his chakra without having to physically gesture in the same way his chakra is moving. Sasuke simply has no chance in close range at all.
Neji's reflexes are exactly what is portrayed in his 128 Palms. He doesn't just magically become super fast upon activating the technique. One's body must be capable of achieving that speed on it's own, before such a jutsu can even be attempted. We plainly see Neji dodging without Juken at the same speed of his normal Juken jutsu when he fought Kidomaru. It is certainly "speed". It would make no sense at all for Neji to be sluggish, then upon activating a single Taijutsu techique he suddenly becomes impossibly fast. Juken techniques don't involve any of the same principles as Lee's Taijutsu. Lee must release the 1st Gate to push his body beyond it's limit to access the speed and physical strength needed for his Omote Renge. However, Juken is just a normal Taijutsu assault. It doesn't involve any unique internal supliments that manually increase the user's speed and/or reflexes. I am not saying that Neji's Shunshin is as fast as his 128 Palms attack. What I am saying is that Neji's standard reactive timing and reflexes are certainly of that level. Let us not forget that even as far back as the Chunin exams, Neji was fully capable of directly engaging Naruto while using the Kyuubi Chakra. In that state, Naruto was able to easily overwhelm Sasuke, whereas Neji fought toe-to-toe with Naruto in both speed, and force. The only reason why Sasuke was able to turn the tables at that point was because of his plot no jutsu that caused him to very convenienty just evolve his Sharingan out of no where. Now if we look at the Official Stats and compare them to what is displayed in the manga and anime, Neji is certainly that fast. During the Chunin Exams the stats have Sasuke's speed at a 3.5, whereas Neji has a 4. We see that Naruto while using the Kyuubi chakra (not a full tail) against both Neji and Sasuke, Neji was able to fight evenly with Naruto and match him in speed and react to all of his moves. However, Sasuke struggled immensely to even keep up with Naruto's speed. This means that Neji was certainly much faster than Sasuke in the entire Season 1. The feats are there, they simply aren't as exaggerated as Sasuke's speed feats. Speaking of which, let us examine Sasuke's speed in Shippuuden. We saw that Deidara, a character that has shown absolutely no talent in Taijutsu nor shows any form of impressive speed, was able to avoid every one of Sasuke's attempted speed-blitzes. We saw that Suigetsu was able to easily get behind Sasuke with his own Shunshin, and Sasuke was unable to react. Suigetsu is yet another who can be said to lack any significant feats in speed. I'm not suggesting that Suigetsu is faster than Sasuke at all, but this is merely an example to show that merely because one does not have any "feats" in speed, does not instantly make Sasuke faster. Also let me point out that Naruto was capable of effortlessly catching Haku while in his Kyubi state. Naruto used this exact form to combat Neji, yet Neji matched Naruto in every way. Haku's speed was almost instantaneous when he traveled from mirror to mirror, yet Naruto captured him with ease, not only dodging Haku's attacks. Yet Neji can match this speed without any suppliments whatsoever. So yeah, Sasuke doesn't outclass Neji in speed by any means. And just as fruit for thought, Kakashi, someone who knows Sasuke's fighting style better than anyone (during Season 1) and trained with him, blatantly stated that Sasuke wouldn't stand a chance against Neji.
Ammy would be blocked by Rotation. Amaterasu will have the same effect no matter what spot of Kaiten it hits. Sasuke can see chakra, but that is irrelivant considering that you don't need a Sharingan to see the chakra of Kaiten. Amaterasu won't just bypass the entire jutsu and directly hit Neji. The strength of Kaiten is just as strong regardless of it's area. Also, Neji wouldn't allow Sasuke to get directly above him while he is using Kaiten? Let's not forget that there isn't anyone more aware of the few weaknesses in the Hyuga fighting style than Neji. Assuming that Kaiten has the weakness everyone believes it does, Neji would never just blindly spam the technique every time Sasuke throws something at him. Also, Kaiten has more creative uses than just defense. We see that Hiashi Hyuga was able to decimate almost a dozen Jounin level Sand ninja with a single Kaiten. They were atleast a few meters away from him. Yet just the force of his Kaiten flung each of them like rag-dolls, and it wasn't even a full powered one lol. We have seen that Neji has taken the Hyuga fighting stye far beyond it's normal limit, to such an extent that even the elders of the clan are amazed. Neji has doubled the range of his Byakugan, and I'm pretty sure Neji can use Kaiten to the same extent as Hiashi did. If Neji uses Kaiten to this degree, I simply don't see Sasuke producing any type of jutsu (other than Kirin and his Susanoo Arrows) that could possibly challenge it. Also, we can't just focus on Sasuke's tools. Sasuke's sword isn't the only factor to consider, when trying to pierce a high level Kaiten. Sasuke himself would have to be able to not only maintain a firm grip on his sword, but he'd have to withstand the sheer force that Kaiten exerts at that level. Beyond this, you are confusing Killer Bee's raiton with Sasuke's. It was Killer Bee who was able to use Raiton to such an extent that the velocity of the chakra's vibrations increased the penatrative force of his projectiles even greater than that of a Futon. Sasuke has skill with Raiton jutsu, but we can't assume that his Raiton techniques are as efficient as Killerbee's. And also, Sasuke's Chidori Spear can only extent up to 5 meters. It was blatantly stated during his fight with Deidara. As I said, when Neji used his Empty Palm on those Zetsus, they were far more than 5 meters away from him. Empty Palm's range certainly exceeds that of Sasuke's Chidori Spear.
To add further to the point of Kaiten's versatility, it can also be used to enhance Neji's normal attacks. We see this done as far back as the Chunin exams, when Neji began a quick Rotation for the purpose of directly countering Naruto's Kyubi enhanced strength. Now lets review the significance of this. Naruto's standard punches have been know to contain quite a bit of force behind them. Now his strength is ampified by his Kyubi chakra, and Naruto was running towards Neji at full speed, building his momentum and drastically increasing his strength even further. Neji only used a partial rotation (he didn't have time to complete a full one), and used that bult up speed and force to increase the strength of a normal slash with his Kunai. It's force was perfectly even with Naruto's, as they were both sent flying by the shockwave of the explosion. Now imagine Neji using this method to increase the power, speed, and range of his Empty Palm jutsu coming out of a fully powered Kaiten that was used for an extended amount of time. Also do not forget that while Kaiten is in use, Neji is still observing the area around him. Think about how fast he's rotating. You'd absolutely need to ability to not only comprehend your surroundings, but the physical endurance so as to not be insanely dizzy lmao. We see that Neji used a small Kaiten to deflect some shuriken, and ends it quicky to catch the Kunai mid air and throw them back at Naruto. If Sasuke would be waiting for Kaiten to end and trys to follow up with another attack, Neji could simply use the method I described, and used a Kaiten enhaced Empty Palm to blast his ass lol. This method can also be used to attack Sasuke if he tries to gain some distance with his Hawk Summoning.
As far as Amaterasu is concerned, I still feel that Kaiten can serve the purpose of protecting Neji. I agree that although it will likely force Neji to stop Kaiten, but as long as Neji comes out of Kaiten attacking like I previously explained, I think he'll be capable of countering any follow up attack Sasuke tries on him. Also, if Sasuke tries to simply hit Neji's arm, Neji can survive being directly hit by it, by quickly forming a think wall of chakra around his body. As we see with Amaterasu, it will converge upon any surface that it makes contact with and burn that surface first. We can treat this thick wall of chakra as the Samurai's armor (although, I'd say Neji's method is alittle more durable than that armor). Ofcourse Neji will recieve some burns just from the ambient heat that Amaterasu exerts, but for the most part it will do the job of preventing Neji's actual body from being hit with it. The purpose here is to just keep the flames off his actual body, and I feel that those small burns he'll get from it's heat will not be nearly enough to slow him down. We've seen how much punishment Neji can withstand when he fought Kidomaru. And if Neji's running speed is really a 4.5, then I would say that he can outrun it in the same way Sasuke did against Itachi. What many forget is that Sasuke intentionally allowed Itachi to hit him with Amaterasu, for the purpose of using Oro's skin shedding technique. This allowed him to get below Itachi, which put Sasuke and Itachi in the perfect position for Sasuke to prepare Kirin. Imo, I don't feel that Sasuke was running at top speed at all, due to his strategy that required him to play possum. Now obviously Neji can't directly challenge Amaterasu's speed like Raikage did, but if he starts running at top speed prior to Sasuke using Amaterasu, I believe he can avoid it. And do not not forget that Amaterasu's activation it quite obvious. First the MS activates, the the blood drips from the eye, then the jutsu is executed. I think tears of blood is a rather sufficient indicator of when Sasuke is going to use it lol. So I find it hard to believe that Neji will have difficulty in judging when Sasuke is preparing an Amaterasu.
Regarding Susanoo, I don't see Kaiten deflecting it's arrows at all. And no, Kaiten was never used to defend against Kidomaru's arrows. The strategy I spoke of did not involve directly defending against Susanoo's arrows. What I said was that Neji can use the very same strategy he used on Kidomaru's arrow. By exerting a tremendous amount of chakra in his general area, Neji can divert the arrow's trajectory, and combined with his reflexes, effectively evade the arrow itself. As for attacking it, I don't see Neji producing anything that could completely piece it and hurt Sasuke. What I think is more likely, is that Neji will spend more time evading the arrows, and waiting for Sasuke to tire out. Lets not forget that there was one thing that really powered Susanoo. Sasuke's hatred. That factor is not present in this battle. Each time Sasuke went into his emo rages, his Susanoo got stronger and stronger, and it allowed him to forcefully maintain it. We cannot assume that this Susanoo will be quite as powerful as the one we saw with Danzo. Danzo was one of the people he sought out to get revenge on, and Sasuke was basically a whack-job at that point lmao. This Sasuke is facing an opponent who he has no personal grudges with, and is not consumed by his rage and hatred. I believe this will certainly weaken the strength of his Susanoo.
Now as far as intellect goes, you can't downplay Neji's strategy. Neji openly admitted that Kidomaru was far more powerful than him. Kidomaru's jutsu and fighting style was virtually the absolute perfect style for neutralizing all of Neji's abilities. He was able to completely stay out of Byakugan's range, his spider webbing made Kaiten useless, he was able to relentlessly attack with a number of spiders that exceeded the number of strikes Neji could produce, and he could use very fast and very powerful arrows who's trajetory can be directly manipulated to fit exactly into the Byakugan's blind spot. Sasuke was able to figure out Deidara's techniques mostly due to his Sharingan and you know it. His Sharingan is what made him realize that Deidara's clay was an Earth style technique. His Sharingan is what allowed him to see Deidara's microscopic bombs and avoid them. And his Cursed Seal is what allowed him to survive Deidara's bomb, and survive stepping on one of the mines. And his CS is what allowed him to reach Deidara in the sky. However, with all this said, I am well aware that Sasuke is a brilliant tactician and very intelligent, so don't think that I'm saying that his intellect played no part in his victories. However, Neji was utterly unable to rely on virtually any of his technique at all. Juken, Kaiten, Byakugan, nothing. It was a suicide plan, no doubt, but Neji was well aware of this. The plan in an of itself was brilliant and quite unexpected. Sasuke is smart, but I wouldn't say that his intellect would be great enough to eclipse Neji's by much.
This might end up being a post in the wrong thread but w/e lol.
Super Sanin 3
09-24-2011, 10:58 AM
Should i just cut the fodder fights like Lee vs Naruto/Sasuke or keep them in anyways?
09-24-2011, 11:00 AM
Should i just cut the fodder fights like Lee vs Naruto/Sasuke or keep them in anyways?
Meh, just keep them in. They're still feats anyway.
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