How strong is the 3rd Hokage?

[TheBlackChidori]

We all know the backstory. He was once considered the God of Shinobi in his prime, mastered all of Konoha's jutsu, was known as the strongest Kage, etc. But we've seen the feats, and they're limited. All we really have to go by is him holding off the Kyuubi, and his fight with Orochimaru.

But let's be honest, that fight was on an entirely different power scale then what we saw throughout series 1. I don't think I realized how major it was then.

He was easily keeping pace with Prime Orochimaru's speed, even overpowering him with the Enma Pole. At the time, didn't seem like much. Looking ahead, it's a huge deal. A sick Orochimaru was keeping up with 4-Tailed Naruto, managed to survive a menacing ball, and pinned him against a canyon before Naruto reverted through Sakura's whining.

So then we can say that Hiruzen can keep up with 4-Tailed Naruto. It's safe to say in his prime, he would have been faster.


Then you look at durability. The Enma Cage kept Hashirama's wood jutsu at bay. His Mud Wall repelled a good majority of Tobiramu's water jutsu. And the speed at which he summoned all these high-level jutsu were incredible, his stamina was something to admire.

On top of that, he was at a handicap. They had the barrier around their battlefield, and Hiruzen seems like one of those ninja who could definitely make full use of an area.

And you can't ignore that he managed to fight off Orochimaru and 2 Kage's at once, even getting off the jutsu to seal two of their souls and ripping off part of the 3rd.

So if they say he mastered all of the villages jutsu, can we use all of the villages jutsu in his debates and arsenal? Cause if so, he has a weapon against almost every opponent in the series.

[GucciBandana]

I don't think the author lied about Hiruzen's skills.

Hiruzen's taijutsu was clearly above Orochimaru's, and in his prime, he is physically strong, because Enma is heavy, and he was fast, even just judging on his body size, plus he was the first one getting to Minato's teleportation spot during the 9 tail fight. andhe 9 very likely he was the one knocking the 9 tail out of the village. he has pretty good stamina back then too, wasn't wounded or tired after fighting the 9 tail.
Hashirama's wood could hold the 9 tail, but easily broken by Enma. another way of looking at it, is Danzo, clearly Danzo never surpassed Hiruzen in any point of his life, or the flashback before his death would be different. Danzo and Hiruzen's rivalry isn't like Madara and Hashirama, Danzo was always a step behind and could never catch up. how strong is Danzo? sealing master, only one so far to break through full Susanoo's defense, and his summoning can almost Chibaku Tensei people, with his implants, he styll never felt he was at Hiruzen's level.
since Kishi kept hyping Hashirama(beating Madara, controlling many tailed beasts) and Tobirama(Edo, Space time jutsu same level as Minato), doesn't this help Hiruzen as well? since Hiruzen fought both of them.
to me, Hiruzen is possibly the strongest ninja ever since the 5 great countries are formed.

[ILIKEPIE]

Well based on what I saw against Orochimaru and heard from what they said I think Hituzen in his prime would be able to make shadow clones like Naruto (meaning a lot) and be able to use high level Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, and Taijutsu. Puting his strenght easily into the higher parts of the legend tier

[GucciBandana]

yes Orochimaru and that ANBU commentator indicated Hiruzen uses Shadow Clone very often in his prime, giving him increased stamina, holding Enma with ease giving him increased strength, being called "Monkey" and having a small figure indicating he is fast.

I see a Nin 5, Tai 5, Gen 5, Int 5, Str 4.5, Spe 4.5, Sta 4.5 total 38.5 prime Hiruzen

also, he is actually one of the only 2 old ninja didn't modify his body, the other one being Onoki. plus coming back from retirement also affects his physically attributes more than other older ninjas.

[J-Man]

He was the strongest Kage at his time, simple. and in his very very old age as you saw, he still beat Hashirama and Tobirama and mostly Orochimaru at the same time. We haven't seen his prime, don't judge Hiruzen the Great.

Enma kicks butt too. That DB stats sound good Bandana, Hiruzen is no doubt top tier people who say that must be those people who say "lololol hiruzen is a weak old man!!" and ignore anything the manga ever implied, what kishi intended or what kishi actually said himself, for whatever silly reason.

HAHA! Look what I found reading through the tier list thread, People were arguing that Chouji would beat Sarutobi xP
http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87663&page=41
http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87663&page=42

[MinatoXNaruto]

Believe me, If that was the real hashirama and not some edo tensei crap, hashirama would have solo'd

[321zigzag3]

Assuming that Kishimoto has not forgotten about Hiruzen at his Prime, then Prime Hiruzen Sarutobi is easily the best.

Believe me, If that was the real hashirama and not some edo tensei crap, hashirama would have solo'd

Actually Edo Tensei doesn't really nerf anyone.
Unless you want to say Kabuto's improved control and his far greater mastery meant his summons can use their full potential.

Orochimaru admitted to Sarutobi that he was toying with him even with the Edo Tensei summons.

They were held back partly because of Orochimaru's toying.

[GucciBandana]

Orochimaru didn't use Hashirama and Tobirama to their full potential, because he didn't need to, when the dark genjutsu came out, he thought it was over, no come back for Hiruzen.

[J-Man]

I always thought that the edo werent as strong as the original because of what all happened back then but not really now that I look at it.

Maybe tobirama's was being incomplete and all but you never know :P

[Flying Fortress Skyfire]

He's unimpressive. Age shouldn't do anything to deprive him of the skills he allegedly gained, at worst just slow him down a bit. But Onoki is like fifty times older than him and he's faster than Sasuke with strength to spare, so he's got no excuse relying on old age.

Combined with a bunch of stupidly basic jutsus from a man who's supposed to know every jutsu in Konoha and what you're got is another Shikamaru, a person whose abilities are FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR inferior to his reputation.

The only good jutsu he had was the Dead Demon Consuming Seal.

[J-Man]

Here are his stats in old age fromDB.

5,5,5,5,3,3,3,5.

Prime Hiruzen is just that much better and, in his old age was still the strongest Kage, Onoki still has nothing on him. If Mu was the Kage which I doubt, even better since Mu is superior.

I wouldnt call them stupidly basic especially since they and Hiruzen himself did so well against Hashirama Senju which speaks for itself, Tobirama Senju and Orochimaru at the same time but if that's what your definition of it is...

[Flying Fortress Skyfire]

Databook can suck my balls. Whoever wrote it has no idea what they're talking about.

Prime Hiruzen is weak and Onoki would omninnihilate him into less than dust. Dunno what Mu's got to do with anything.

Orochimaru was just screwing around. He wasn't going all out. As he was in control of the Rama brothers, they too were also screwing around.

[J-Man]

It's Kishi's manga so...............if Flying Fortress Skyfire has more authority over the strentgth of characters in Naruto than the author itself I'll concede. :P

Mu is superior to Onoki so if he was Kage at the time multiple characters in the manga said Hiruzen was the strongest Kage, then its even better for Hiruzen because Onoki is inferior.

Can you prove that they weren't being serious?

[Vivi]

HAHA! Look what I found reading through the tier list thread, People were arguing that Chouji would beat Sarutobi xP
http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87663&page=41
http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87663&page=42


Cause all Chouji did was show more impressive feats in part 1 alone such as Power easily rivaling Tsunade.=/

Hiruzen is simply pure hype nothing more with nothing to back it up.


And DB is trash.Haku was said to be Lightspeed.BS considering Part 2 Characters need 3 Days from Konoha to Suna which would mean the distance is around from our earth to way outta our galaxy.

Ammy as hot as the Sun yet the surroundings arent affected by the heat.

Course DB is trustworthy11!1!

[Flying Fortress Skyfire]

Shikamaru intelligence score of five. Amaterasu hot as the sun. Yata Mirror can reflect ANY attack whatsoever no matter the source. The databook's never been accurate, and it's obviously based more on reputation than on any actual ability so why should we rely on it to determine Hiruzen's abilities?

Multiple characters in the manga also said Shikamaru is smart and Sasuke is God's gift to mankind and isn't evil, just misunderstood. What multiple characters say is as meaningless as the databook.

Orochimaru didn't use numerous techniques he later showed to win, and missed many opportunities, and didn't fight alongside the Rama bros. Can you prove they were?

[Vivi]

It's actualy obvious Orochimaru held back massively on Hiruzen...

Hashirama fought Madara w/ Kyuubi.
Hiruzen could barely shoo out the Kyuubi with his Teammates.

Tobirama's praised T/S Jutsus?
Nowhere seen.

Orochimaru:
No Hydra,No Manda etc.

Orochimaru even said he wants Hiruzen to suffer by making him fight them.

And I'm supposed to believe Hiruzen is some majorly powerful Fighter?

Prime maybe.But old one is rubbish.


Everything shows Orochimaru held back.

[J-Man]

Cause all Chouji did was show more impressive feats in part 1 alone such as Power easily rivaling Tsunade.=/

Hiruzen is simply pure hype nothing more with nothing to back it up.


And DB is trash.Haku was said to be Lightspeed.BS considering Part 2 Characters need 3 Days from Konoha to Suna which would mean the distance is around from our earth to way outta our galaxy.

Ammy as hot as the Sun yet the surroundings arent affected by the heat.

Course DB is trustworthy11!1!
More impressive? Nope, he was a genin. Good luck Choji.

Problem with that?

he is lightspeed inside his mirros thats how his jutsu works.

Because similes are supposed to be taken literally. -___-
Shikamaru intelligence score of five. Amaterasu hot as the sun. Yata Mirror can reflect ANY attack whatsoever no matter the source. The databook's never been accurate, and it's obviously based more on reputation than on any actual ability so why should we rely on it to determine Hiruzen's abilities?

Multiple characters in the manga also said Shikamaru is smart and Sasuke is God's gift to mankind and isn't evil, just misunderstood. What multiple characters say is as meaningless as the databook.

Orochimaru didn't use numerous techniques he later showed to win, and missed many opportunities, and didn't fight alongside the Rama bros. Can you prove they were?
5 isn't that impressive stat and according to what naruto characters call intelligence yeah 5 works. Similes, taken extremely literally because it supports arguments since Vivi and Skyfire. Yata Mirror wasnt worded like that.

These are your personal opinions on the story and have nothing to do with how strong the character actually are.

Hiruzen is such a noob Orochimaru didn't need to fight alongside two of these really strong kage. So why weren't the Kage fighting seriously?

[Flying Fortress Skyfire]

More impressive? Nope, he was a genin. Good luck Choji.

Being a genin doesn't mean anything. Naruto's a genin. Tsunade's a Kage. Naruto > Tsunade.

Problem with that?

He's weak.

he is lightspeed inside his mirros thats how his jutsu works.

Proof?

Because similes are supposed to be taken literally. -___-

Proof it was a simile and not an actual comparison of power?

5 isn't that impressive stat and according to what naruto characters call intelligence yeah 5 works.

Five is the highest possible score, reserved for the best of the best. Shikamaru should be like a 1.

These are your personal opinions on the story and have nothing to do with how strong the character actually are.

No, it's valid reasoning for disregarding a reputation that's based on absolutely nothing.

Hiruzen is such a noob Orochimaru didn't need to fight alongside two of these really strong kage. So why weren't the Kage fighting seriously?

They weren't. Orochimaru was controlling them and he didn't want to go all out so why would they?

[Vivi]

More impressive? Nope, he was a genin. Good luck Choji.

Problem with that?

he is lightspeed inside his mirros thats how his jutsu works.

Because similes are supposed to be taken literally. -___-



Naruto is a Genin.Sasuke is a Genin.
Ranks mean jack when a Character has shown superior feats.
And yes more impressive.
Like overpowering Jirobo who casually single handily lifted up a Boss Sized Chouji in Butterfly Mode with his weaker non Chakra infused Hand so it wasn't even his best.
Or being faster than him.Not impressive?Jirobo was so fast Byakugan couldn't keep track with 360 degrees vision.In Base.

It's simple:
Hiruzen = Most overrated.
Chouji = Most underrated.

Yup.Cause his Hype doesn't live up to his feats.

Yup inside the Mirrors.Your point?
Or are you trying to say that makes him STILL faster than anyone in part 2?
Nope considering Guy and Lee managed to strike Haku in Mirrors.

Proof?Probably more DB crap.

[J-Man]

Being a genin doesn't mean anything. Naruto's a genin. Tsunade's a Kage. Naruto > Tsunade.

He's weak.

Proof?

Proof it was a simile and not an actual comparison of power?

Five is the highest possible score, reserved for the best of the best. Shikamaru should be like a 1.

No, it's valid reasoning for disregarding a reputation that's based on absolutely nothing.

They weren't. Orochimaru was controlling them and he didn't want to go all out so why would they?
Classic Naruto is a genin stuff. Unfortunately Naruto was away for two years, rank matters. A genin(who is one under normal conditions isnt gonna be beating a hokage. Hiruzen sits inside Enma so, yeah there goes any choji attempt to beat Hiruzen.

He reflects in the mirrors.

Well Vivi covered that, it doesnt burn the things around it.

But theres a huge gap Kiba has Sasuke's speed but he's al ot slower. There is a lot of space in one number.

Sasuke is just misunderstood and not really evil etc etc. You dont like Sasuke so youre pullin this outta your butt to help you out acting like its an incorrect fact theyve said, its just your opinion.

Key word he was controlling them, plus even Orochimaru got into the fight at some point. It's up to you to prove they weren't trying don't try to put it on me now Skyfire.

Orochimaru wasnt fooling when the point got to the demon death seal jutsu and he still couldnt get free because if that were me I would be using really strong jutsu trying to get free of that but in the end, his arms got sealed.

Also for the hell, a non-serious Orochi just like in that fight vs Choji? Lol

[321zigzag3]

Who honestly cares anyway?

Prime Hiruzen is featless, this debate sounds more like Town Bookstore or the polls or some other section.

[J-Man]

Naruto is a Genin.Sasuke is a Genin.
Ranks mean jack when a Character has shown superior feats.
And yes more impressive.
Like overpowering Jirobo who casually single handily lifted up a Boss Sized Chouji in Butterfly Mode with his weaker non Chakra infused Hand.
Or being faster than him.Not impressive?Jirobo was so fast Byakugan couldn't keep track with 360 degrees vision.In Base.

Yup.Cause his Hype doesn't live up to his feats.

Yup inside the Mirrors.Your point?
Or are you trying to say that makes him STILL faster than anyone in part 2?
Nope considering Guy and Lee managed to strike Haku in Mirrors.


Probably more DB crap.
LOLS more classic Sasuke and Naruto who obviously couldnt rank higher even if they wanted to. Try some characters that actually can rank up!

Byakuagan doesnt do that if you didnt ever learn about byakugan. what it does is looks at chakra points and sees inside the body, and can see from far distances and etc.

Couple jonin pushed the sound 4 to their limits anyway and they could have won if they hadnt been weakened previously so, nough said there.

he wasn't in mirror otherwise they couldnt hit him he would just be a reflection.

"more DB crap" thanks for the insult Mr. Vivi but I'll continue to debate in a civil way thank you :D

[Vivi]

Who honestly cares anyway?

Prime Hiruzen is featless, this debate sounds more like Town Bookstore or the polls or some other section.

/Thread.

LOL more classic Sasuke and Naruto who obviously couldnt rank higher even if they wanted to. Try some characters that actually can rank up!

Sure.Lee to Aoba.Neji to Kurenai.Want me to give more?

Byakuagan doesnt do that if you didnt ever learn about byakugan. what it does is looks at chakra points and sees inside the body, and can see from far distances and etc.

Go look up the Byakugan then try again.

Couple jonin pushed the sound 4 to their limits anyway and they could have won if they hadnt been weakened previously so, nough said there.


More that this proves my point.

he wasn't in mirror otherwise they couldnt hit him he would just be a reflection.

He was.Look again.

[J-Man]

Dont see how that matters?

Being featless=/=your ability to stomp choji all over the place in old age or prime.

[Flying Fortress Skyfire]

rank matters. No it doesn't.

Hiruzen sits inside Enma so, yeah there goes any choji attempt to beat Hiruzen.

It's not a fight. Choji is just more impressive.


He reflects in the mirrors.


That don't make him lightspeed. I reflect in mirrors. Am I light speed now?

Well Vivi covered that, it doesnt burn the things around it.

Which proves it's not has as the sun that the databook claims. +1 for me.

But theres a huge gap Kiba has Sasuke's speed but he's al ot slower. There is a lot of space in one number.


Further proof of the databooks unreliableness.

Sasuke is just misunderstood and not really evil etc etc. You dont like Sasuke so youre pullin this outta your butt to help you out acting like its an incorrect fact theyve said, its just your opinion.

I am indifferent to Sasuke. I neither like nor dislike him. I'm not making stuff up just to help me out, I'm telling it like it is.

It's up to you to prove they weren't trying don't try to put it on me now Skyfire.

I don't have to put it on you, it was on you from the start. I've already proved it, you have to disprove it.

Orochimaru wasnt fooling when the point got to the demon death seal jutsu and he still couldnt get free because if that were me I would be using really strong jutsu trying to get free of that but in the end, his arms got sealed.

Would you be able to get away if your soul was being pulled out? Didn't think so.

[321zigzag3]

/Thread.

Someone lock this thread, pronto.

Dont see how that matters?

Being featless=/=your ability to stomp choji all over the place in old age or prime.

The fact its featless means we have really not much to judge on Hiruzen. Considering his showings abysmal at best and he hasn't received so called.

Part 2 Treatment.

[J-Man]

No it doesn't. I like how you asked for all that proof while this is just baseless comment with nothing to back it up so I'll accept your concession now. :D
It's not a fight. Choji is just more impressive.
In terms of feats sure but if its already obvious Sarutobi stomps him all over the place nothing omre needs to be said.
That don't make him lightspeed. I reflect in mirrors. Am I light speed now?Yes your image is lightspeed.
Which proves it's not has as the sun that the databook claims. +1 for me.
So then we have nothing else contradicting and the fact that its a simile.
Further proof of the databooks unreliableness.
Thats not even related to their statements. Thats just stats which do have big gaps because of the wide variety of speed and only being 9 rankings? Unless you want someone to be 50,000/50,000 total speed and someone else 45,312.
I am indifferent to Sasuke. I neither like nor dislike him. I'm not making stuff up just to help me out, I'm telling it like it is.I'll go back and find all your posts where you said all this stuff bad about him so you better delete them like that Temari Gauntlet fast. ^^

I don't have to put it on you, it was on you from the start. I've already proved it, you have to disprove it.You didn't prove it all you did was say that he wasnt using Jutsu he had in his arsenal.

Would you be able to get away if your soul was being pulled out? Didn't think so.What about all those jutsu, I didnt see a restriction where he was incapable of using jutsu simply because Hiruzen was closer to winning than before? :?:

[J-Man]

Someone lock this thread, pronto.



The fact its featless means we have really not much to judge on Hiruzen. Considering his showings abysmal at best and he hasn't received so called.

Part 2 Treatment.
But he's still hokage and showed much more than enough already. Why does having feats matter if his stats are his stats and hes as strong as he is? Just because Kishi never had a specific flashback to prove what anyting said doesnt make it untrue.

Not really related to "Part 2 treatment", even after all he showed in part 1 which vivi claims to be so amazing, he took the test again since then and... hes still a Chuunin, weird huh.

Either way Choji's power pales in comparison to any Kage for that matter so its okay even if he was stronger than the stronger chuunin.

[321zigzag3]

But he's still hokage and showed much more than enough already. Why does having feats matter if his stats are his stats and hes as strong as he is? Just because Kishi never had a specific flashback to prove what anyting said doesnt make it untrue.

Not really related to "Part 2 treatment", even after all he showed in part 1 which vivi claims to be so amazing, he took the test again since then and... hes still a Chuunin, weird huh.

Either way Choji's power pales in comparison to any Kage for that matter so its okay even if he was stronger than the stronger chuunin.

Its true he has the stats, its just the problem is we really don't know what repertoire he has though. It all becomes on very loos generalization and hype and people get confused.

Never said Hiruzen thing was false, I said if Kishimoto didn't forget then Hiruzen is still the god of shinobi.

Actually the only real threat from Chouji is his giant butterfly form.

[Vivi]

I

Actually the only real threat from Chouji is his giant butterfly form.

Pretty much.

Though it's only weakness has appearantly been dispelled now that he can enter it without the Pills, adding in Flight.

[J-Man]

Its true he has the stats, its just the problem is we really don't know what repertoire he has though. It all becomes on very loos generalization and hype and people get confused.

Never said Hiruzen thing was false, I said if Kishimoto didn't forget then Hiruzen is still the god of shinobi.

Actually the only real threat from Chouji is his giant butterfly form.
He is, and something tells me a chunin won't exactly be beating a hokage and the "god of shinobi". Evenw ith buterfly mode, its just a clan in the village and every akimichi knew butterfly mode so if its was some unheard of amazing thing theyd have been kage already and a lot more.

[J-Sun Tasogare]

It's actualy obvious Orochimaru held back massively on Hiruzen...

Hashirama fought Madara w/ Kyuubi.
Hiruzen could barely shoo out the Kyuubi with his Teammates.

Tobirama's praised T/S Jutsus?
Nowhere seen.

Orochimaru:
No Hydra,No Manda etc.

Orochimaru even said he wants Hiruzen to suffer by making him fight them.

And I'm supposed to believe Hiruzen is some majorly powerful Fighter?

Prime maybe.But old one is rubbish.


Everything shows Orochimaru held back.

How was he supposed to do that inside of a barrier?

[321zigzag3]

He is, and something tells me a chunin won't exactly be beating a hokage and the "god of shinobi". Evenw ith buterfly mode, its just a clan in the village and every akimichi knew butterfly mode so if its was some unheard of amazing thing theyd have been kage already and a lot more.

Note that I never made that comparison.

[J-Man]

Wait where are you getting Vivi's post did they get deleted or something because Ive beenw aiting to repsond I dont see anything.

[Flying Fortress Skyfire]

How was he supposed to do that inside of a barrier?

Even more evidence he's holding back. He intentionally used a barrier jutsu that prevented him from using his full power.

[J-Sun Tasogare]

Even more evidence he's holding back. He intentionally used a barrier jutsu that prevented him from using his full power.

Yeah that makes sense, he didn't use it to stop interference from outside people. Common sense is being depleted swiftly.

[Super Sanin 3]

Haku moves from mirror to mirror at light speed, for example, two mirrors are across from eachother, and some guy's infront of the first mirror.
Haku can instantly teleport to the second mirror, and that's when he actually comes outside the mirror, with much less speed

[Flying Fortress Skyfire]

And to support this you have...

[GucciBandana]

He's unimpressive. Age shouldn't do anything to deprive him of the skills he allegedly gained, at worst just slow him down a bit. But Onoki is like fifty times older than him and he's faster than Sasuke with strength to spare, so he's got no excuse relying on old age.

Combined with a bunch of stupidly basic jutsus from a man who's supposed to know every jutsu in Konoha and what you're got is another Shikamaru, a person whose abilities are FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR inferior to his reputation.

The only good jutsu he had was the Dead Demon Consuming Seal.

Onoki might be a little older than Hiruzen, and his stamina was very bad too, I only seen him using 1 Jinton per battle and he is out of breathe very fast when he was facing Mu, plus he has a bad back.

both fighting against their former teachers, Onoki can't keep up with Mu, and would die many times if Gaara wasn't there, while Hiruzen held his own for pretty long.

plus, Hiruzen came back from retirement, Onoki never retired.

Orochimaru's strongest summoning is Hashirama and Tobirama, not Hydra nor the even weaker Manda, so he used his strongest summoning on Hiruzen.

the 2 former Kages didn't need to use all their skills to gain upper hand against Hiruzen, when the darkness genjutsu comes out, Orochimaru thought it was pretty much over, Hiruzen had a surprising self-sacrificing come back. old Hiruzen isn't strong enough to keep up with both Kages for long, but a prime one is a completely different story.

[Flying Fortress Skyfire]

Was that an attempt to disprove what I said or support it? If the former, swing and a miss.

If the latter...well, still not great, but at least your heart's in the right place. :P

Onoki has low stamina, a bad back and can only use one jutsu for battle. And yet, he's still one of the most powerful ninjas in the world. Funny that.

Onoki has trouble with his former teacher while Hiruzen held off his.

Well, firstly, Mu > the Ramas so pointless comparison is pointless.

Secondly, Orochimaru was controlling the Ramas so in addition to not being a stellar strategist, his attention was split multiple ways. Not only that but he wasn't going all out, so the Ramas weren't really fighting at their full potential.

Comparatively, Kabuto is able to almost effortlessly coordinate the what? 20+ Edo Tenseis he's using? While also giving them free rein to use the skills that made them powerful ninjas in the first place.

Hiruzen came back from retirement. Onoki never retired. That means that Hiruzen retired because wasn't up to snuff while Onoki remained the top dog despite his bad back, poor stamina and inability to use more than one jutsu a battle. In other words, Onoki > Hiruzen.

[SageoftheSixPaths]

No real feats from prime Hiruzen, and the ones he HAS shown put him on the lowest tier of Kages we've seen (with the possible exception of Tsunade). He has almost no variety in his attacks, not much stamina, and his only true asset it Enma, whose best power is turning into a stick.

Against any of the Kages we've seen, and most of the higher tier Jonin (Kakashi, Akatsuki, possibly Neji, etc.) could destroy him.

So he's not "strong" at all in comparison to the level he SHOULD be on. And age can't really be called a major factor here, since somebody already pointed out that Onoki is still one of the most powerful characters in the series without doing anything more than floating and deconstructing things on a molecular level. That's two moves, and he would still wreck half the characters we've seen.

Hiruzen just can't compete with that.

[GucciBandana]

Was that an attempt to disprove what I said or support it? If the former, swing and a miss.

If the latter...well, still not great, but at least your heart's in the right place. :P

Onoki has low stamina, a bad back and can only use one jutsu for battle. And yet, he's still one of the most powerful ninjas in the world. Funny that.

Onoki has trouble with his former teacher while Hiruzen held off his.

Well, firstly, Mu > the Ramas so pointless comparison is pointless.

Secondly, Orochimaru was controlling the Ramas so in addition to not being a stellar strategist, his attention was split multiple ways. Not only that but he wasn't going all out, so the Ramas weren't really fighting at their full potential.

Comparatively, Kabuto is able to almost effortlessly coordinate the what? 20+ Edo Tenseis he's using? While also giving them free rein to use the skills that made them powerful ninjas in the first place.

Hiruzen came back from retirement. Onoki never retired. That means that Hiruzen retired because wasn't up to snuff while Onoki remained the top dog despite his bad back, poor stamina and inability to use more than one jutsu a battle. In other words, Onoki > Hiruzen.

I never said Onoki can only use Jinton in a battle, I said he can only use 1 Jinton per battle, plus other Earth techniques. he's breathing hard when he was clashing with Mu even before Mu went invisible.

if you think Mu is stronger than the Senju brothers then there's no point of arguing this, if you are going with Orochimaru didn't control them well, maybe we can continue, you basically said someone who can beat Madara + 9 tail at the same time, and someone who has S/T jutsu at Minato's level + Edo Tensei weaker than Mu, Im not even mentioning worthless feats like Hashirama's genjutsu and Tobirama's water release.

Kabuto can summon lots of people at once, but he never fully controlled even one until he got Orochimaru's chakra from Anko, right now, he styll barely fully control any of them, when are the Edo zombies the strongest? when they are fully controlled, I don't hear Hashirama telling Hiruzen "hurry and call the Kazekage over, or you will die..." when he traps Hiruzen in darkness.

Hiruzen retired because he wants to.

[GucciBandana]

No real feats from prime Hiruzen, and the ones he HAS shown put him on the lowest tier of Kages we've seen (with the possible exception of Tsunade). He has almost no variety in his attacks, not much stamina, and his only true asset it Enma, whose best power is turning into a stick.

Against any of the Kages we've seen, and most of the higher tier Jonin (Kakashi, Akatsuki, possibly Neji, etc.) could destroy him.

So he's not "strong" at all in comparison to the level he SHOULD be on. And age can't really be called a major factor here, since somebody already pointed out that Onoki is still one of the most powerful characters in the series without doing anything more than floating and deconstructing things on a molecular level. That's two moves, and he would still wreck half the characters we've seen.

Hiruzen just can't compete with that.

I don't see how Hiruzen's feats being "weak", his Earth Wall is about 5 times as high as Kakashi's, and Hashirama's wood could hold on the 9 tail, easily broken by Enma stuff, quick hands putting explosive tags on Senjus leg, showing his taijutsu, how is it "weak"? if he is weak, then the Senjus are even "weaker".

plz tell me why you think the current Onoki being stronger than a Hiruzen by the time of his death.

[SageoftheSixPaths]

I don't see how Hiruzen's feats being "weak", his Earth Wall is about 5 times as high as Kakashi's, and Hashirama's wood could hold on the 9 tail, easily broken by Enma stuff, quick hands putting explosive tags on Senjus leg, showing his taijutsu, how is it "weak"? if he is weak, then the Senjus are even "weaker".

plz tell me why you think the current Onoki being stronger than a Hiruzen by the time of his death.
Size doesn't matter. ;D

But seriously, an entire SQUAD of Earth Style users made a wall (supposedly) hundreds of meters long and dozens of meters thick, but had it torn apart in moments by someone from Hiruzen's generation, not to mention one of his fellow Kages. Hiruzen has shown nothing of that caliber.

When did we see Hashirama's wood holding the Nine Tail in check? Or Hashirama actually using anything close to what was implied to be his full strength? If the Ramas summoned by Oro were their true prime fighting capabilities in full swing, then the level of Kages has gone WAY up in only a few generations. And I do mean WAY, WAY up. Naruto could easily thrash all of the characters in that fight alone without breaking a sweat.

The explosive tags were a decent speed feat, but nothing too impressive. I mean, Sasuke survived being caught in a kilometer wide explosion with no real life threatening injuries, not to mention several other attacks beforehand. The exploding tags don't create a blast nearly that large or powerful, and I doubt they'd do much against high tier characters. As for the Senjus, I agree. Somethings up with how weak they are when they've been so hyped up since the beginning.

Onoki can fly. His Jutsu is one of the fastest in the series. He picked up an island sized turtle with what appeared to be telekinesis. He can win with one hit. Against ANYTHING.

[Wooster]

Size doesn't matter. ;D

But seriously, an entire SQUAD of Earth Style users made a wall (supposedly) hundreds of meters long and dozens of meters thick, but had it torn apart in moments by someone from Hiruzen's generation, not to mention one of his fellow Kages. Hiruzen has shown nothing of that caliber.

When did we see Hashirama's wood holding the Nine Tail in check? Or Hashirama actually using anything close to what was implied to be his full strength? If the Ramas summoned by Oro were their true prime fighting capabilities in full swing, then the level of Kages has gone WAY up in only a few generations. And I do mean WAY, WAY up. Naruto could easily thrash all of the characters in that fight alone without breaking a sweat.

The explosive tags were a decent speed feat, but nothing too impressive. I mean, Sasuke survived being caught in a kilometer wide explosion with no real life threatening injuries, not to mention several other attacks beforehand. The exploding tags don't create a blast nearly that large or powerful, and I doubt they'd do much against high tier characters. As for the Senjus, I agree. Somethings up with how weak they are when they've been so hyped up since the beginning.

Onoki can fly. His Jutsu is one of the fastest in the series. He picked up an island sized turtle with what appeared to be telekinesis. He can win with one hit. Against ANYTHING.
More importantly, Hiruzen freely admitted he was weaker than Orochimaru and Minato.
I think what made Hiruzen great was his vast intelligence. Wasn't his name the professor after all? :lol:

[SageoftheSixPaths]

More importantly, Hiruzen freely admitted he was weaker than Orochimaru and Minato.
I think what made Hiruzen great was his vast intelligence. Wasn't his name the professor after all? :lol:
And the God of Shinobi, which is something of an exaggeration if I'm not mistaken.

Though hype DOES make him one of the most powerful characters to exist since he was supposedly stronger than the other Kages of his time and the Hokages that came before him.

But, again, there are no feats from Prime Hiruzen, and in his old age he's basically been reduced to fodder compared to what we're seeing from Kage level fighters now.

[Flying Fortress Skyfire]

I never said Onoki can only use Jinton in a battle, I said he can only use 1 Jinton per battle, plus other Earth techniques. he's breathing hard when he was clashing with Mu even before Mu went invisible.

Point stands.

if you think Mu is stronger than the Senju brothers then there's no point of arguing this,The Ramas abilities are just as much hype as Hiruzen's, so you're right, there is no point in arguing this because Mu will stomp from here to next Tuesday regardless of whatever you may think until such time as a flashback occurs to reveal to use the true extent of their abilities.

Hasirama > Madara and the Kyuubi. Tobirama > Minato in every way, shape and form. Orochi's Edo Tensei suxxorzDon't mind the alterations, I've just summarized what you said.

You say that like he was able to match the Kyuubi directly, when in actuality, some unusual property of Mokuton enabled him to pacify it.

Similarly, Tobirama's non-existant space-time jutsus are not worth mentioning without at least a general idea of what they are capable of.

Kabuto can summon lots of people at once, but he never fully controlled even one until he got Orochimaru's chakra from Anko, right now, he still barely fully control any of them, when are the Edo zombies the strongest? And your point? Fact remains that the quality of Kabuto's Edos is superior to Oro's and that Kabuto's a better strategist than Oro. So basically, you've contributed nothing whatsoever with this particular section.


when they are fully controlled, I don't hear Hashirama telling Hiruzen "hurry and call the Kazekage over, or you will die..." when he traps Hiruzen in darkness.
Again, point? Hiruzen was able to fight blind against two inferior Edos who weren't going all out, and who weren't able to think independantly.

So that really doesn't make him superior to Onoki, even if Onoki can't beat Mu without Gaara's help.

So once again you've contributed nothing.

Hiruzen retired because he wants to.Then his retirement contributes nothing to the conversation. That seems to occur quite frequently when you're here.

[Wooster]

Yeah, even during the Nine Tails attack, he was ancient. But really, we all know the problem: power scaling. Hiruzen's feats are very early Naruto. Kisihi wants to impress us. Thus, this far into the manga, Hiruzen has no chance. No doubt if Kishi gives us a Hiruzen flashback, he will be just as powerful as the Kage we are seeing now.

[Flying Fortress Skyfire]

More importantly, Hiruzen freely admitted he was weaker than Orochimaru and Minato.
I think what made Hiruzen great was his vast intelligence. Wasn't his name the professor after all? :lol:

http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=104500

[GucciBandana]

Size doesn't matter. ;D

But seriously, an entire SQUAD of Earth Style users made a wall (supposedly) hundreds of meters long and dozens of meters thick, but had it torn apart in moments by someone from Hiruzen's generation, not to mention one of his fellow Kages. Hiruzen has shown nothing of that caliber.

When did we see Hashirama's wood holding the Nine Tail in check? Or Hashirama actually using anything close to what was implied to be his full strength? If the Ramas summoned by Oro were their true prime fighting capabilities in full swing, then the level of Kages has gone WAY up in only a few generations. And I do mean WAY, WAY up. Naruto could easily thrash all of the characters in that fight alone without breaking a sweat.

The explosive tags were a decent speed feat, but nothing too impressive. I mean, Sasuke survived being caught in a kilometer wide explosion with no real life threatening injuries, not to mention several other attacks beforehand. The exploding tags don't create a blast nearly that large or powerful, and I doubt they'd do much against high tier characters. As for the Senjus, I agree. Somethings up with how weak they are when they've been so hyped up since the beginning.

Onoki can fly. His Jutsu is one of the fastest in the series. He picked up an island sized turtle with what appeared to be telekinesis. He can win with one hit. Against ANYTHING.

Earth is weak against Lightning, Hiruzen chose the most wise defense.

Yamato only has like 1/100 of Hashirama's wood release power and styll can hold down 4 tail Naruto with his wood, plus look at this picture:


Hiruzen broke the wood with Enma stick.

Senju brothers can use all the skills they had in their prime and just as powerful, but that doesn't mean they will fight as good, also Orochimaru thought the fight was over when Hashirama's darkness genjutsu came out, their whole arsenal weren't needed to gain the upper land. plus, lets say it was their full strength, why do you say "Naruto could easily thrash all of the characters in that fight", and not "Hiruzen could easily trash all the characters in the great Shinobi war", it works both ways, just depends on which side ur looking at as the "scale".

Sasuke had ways to defend agaist Deidara's explosives, C2 was enough to do damage on him, Kakuzu always can't take an explosive tag without harden his body, Madara almost died from Konan's first suicide explosive tag attack before the 6 billion comes in, Minato barely made in time to save Naruto from explosive tags, I don't see how people not getting damaged when they get explosive tags attached to their body without noticing.

Onoki can fly, many other characters can too, Mu, Deidara, Gaara, and I don't think flying matters to someone Hiruzen's level, especially Hiruzen, since Enma is extendable. he has one of the fastest jutsu? which one? he has the ability to make whatever he touches to gain the ability to fly, but I don't see how that's a important fighting technique. he can win with one hit, that's if he hits. if I remember correctly, Jinton never killed anything yet.


More importantly, Hiruzen freely admitted he was weaker than Orochimaru and Minato.
I think what made Hiruzen great was his vast intelligence. Wasn't his name the professor after all? :lol:

when did he say that? during the time of Orochimaru's attack? that is in his old age.

[Flying Fortress Skyfire]

Old age isn't an excuse. Reference: Onoki.

[heroeking]

The problem is that Kishi never had thought of the things he has in part 2 so of course Orochi,Tobirama, and Hashirama would show less stuff.

[SageoftheSixPaths]

Earth is weak against Lightning, Hiruzen chose the most wise defense.

Yamato only has like 1/100 of Hashirama's wood release power and styll can hold down 4 tail Naruto with his wood, plus look at this picture:
[IMAGE REMOVED]

Hiruzen broke the wood with Enma stick.

Senju brothers can use all the skills they had in their prime and just as powerful, but that doesn't mean they will fight as good, also Orochimaru thought the fight was over when Hashirama's darkness genjutsu came out, their whole arsenal weren't needed to gain the upper land. plus, lets say it was their full strength, why do you say "Naruto could easily thrash all of the characters in that fight", and not "Hiruzen could easily trash all the characters in the great Shinobi war", it works both ways, just depends on which side ur looking at as the "scale".

Sasuke had ways to defend agaist Deidara's explosives, C2 was enough to do damage on him, Kakuzu always can't take an explosive tag without harden his body, Madara almost died from Konan's first suicide explosive tag attack before the 6 billion comes in, Minato barely made in time to save Naruto from explosive tags, I don't see how people not getting damaged when they get explosive tags attached to their body without noticing.

Onoki can fly, many other characters can too, Mu, Deidara, Gaara, and I don't think flying matters to someone Hiruzen's level, especially Hiruzen, since Enma is extendable. he has one of the fastest jutsu? which one? he has the ability to make whatever he touches to gain the ability to fly, but I don't see how that's a important fighting technique. he can win with one hit, that's if he hits. if I remember correctly, Jinton never killed anything yet.
First of all, take down the image if you don't want to get infracted for copyright reasons.

Second of all, 100 Jonin level ninja should > One Kage, right? No? That one Kage is the badass father of the badass 4th Raikage, the badass 3rd Raikage? You don't say! Yet Hiruzen spat some mud and stopped one attack. That's all. The 3rd Raikage PAWNCHED! a wall multiple times larger and stronger than Hiruzen's without any real effort by poking it.

Wood Release should logically not have any abilities regarding subduing Bijuu, but because of plot it does. Also, Yamato had the 1st's necklace to help him back then, which he doesn't now.

We did not see Hiruzen beat ANYBODY ANYWHERE in the manga. All his victories are hype or suicide bombings in the form of the Reaper Death Seal. He could be the same case as the 3rd Raikge stabbing himself, for all we know -- something of a fluke and the victim of exaggerated legends. It's often the case in reality, why not a manga? And Naruto threw a rhino the size of a skyscraper like a ragdoll. He beats them.

There was only one instance of Kakuzu using his Earth Spear, and then he got stabbed. True capabilities never seen, so it doesn't make sense to use it. C2 hit Sasuke multiple times but he brushed it off pretty casually. Konan hit Madara in the face and he just got pissed. And 6 billion only made him kill her all the more painfully. When a baby gets hit by exploding ANYTHING they die. Unless you're Superman or some crazy s*** like that.

Flies out of range of all of Hiruzen's Jutsu, spams Dust Release until the landscape is reminiscent of the Mojave. He simply dematerializes Enma if he gets too close. Dust Release fight with Muu proved the Jutsu to be incredibly fast. It caught Sasuke for a second when Onoki fought him (though he somehow escaped, despite reason saying otherwise), and Sasuke is certainly faster than Hiruzen.

[GucciBandana]

Point stands.

The Ramas abilities are just as much hype as Hiruzen's, so you're right, there is no point in arguing this because Mu will stomp from here to next Tuesday regardless of whatever you may think until such time as a flashback occurs to reveal to use the true extent of their abilities.

Don't mind the alterations, I've just summarized what you said.

You say that like he was able to match the Kyuubi directly, when in actuality, some unusual property of Mokuton enabled him to pacify it.

Similarly, Tobirama's non-existant space-time jutsus are not worth mentioning without at least a general idea of what they are capable of.

And your point? Fact remains that the quality of Kabuto's Edos is superior to Oro's and that Kabuto's a better strategist than Oro. So basically, you've contributed nothing whatsoever with this particular section.


Again, point? Hiruzen was able to fight blind against two inferior Edos who weren't going all out, and who weren't able to think independantly.

So that really doesn't make him superior to Onoki, even if Onoki can't beat Mu without Gaara's help.

So once again you've contributed nothing.

Then his retirement contributes nothing to the conversation. That seems to occur quite frequently when you're here.

ya, you are right, Mu is stronger than Hashirama + Tobirama, the guy owns Ramen restaurant is stronger than Hatake Sakumo.

is there any evidence Tobirama can't use S/T jutsu the same level as Minato? no, then you listen to what Minato tells you. is there any evidence of a prime Hiruzen not being the strongest Hokage of all time and strongest Kage? no, then you listen to the characters who said it and the author's statement in the databook.

that's why Hashirama or Tobirama will stomp Mu from here to next Tuesday regardless of whatever you may think until such time as a flashback occurs to reveal the incapability of them, and prove the hype wrong.

if you can't prove the hypes or statements wrong, then assume they are right. what happens if a flashback occurs and Hiruzen poke down the Sun with Enma stuff? "oh he is the strongest Hokage of all time and strongest Kage", too bad the author told you this to begin with.

out of ur whole paragraph, the only thing worth reply was this: "Hiruzen was able to fight blind against two inferior Edos who weren't going all out, and who weren't able to think independantly." you are talking like Onoki was doing any better, was Mu going all out? clearly not, his body was reacting on its own, was he thinking independently? yes he was, but too bad his thoughts don't matter to his movements.

Old age isn't an excuse. Reference: Onoki.
you can't even prove current Onoki is stronger than Hiruzen by the time of his death, so this point contributed nothing.

[Flying Fortress Skyfire]

ya, you are right, Mu is stronger than Hashirama + Tobirama, the guy owns Ramen restaurant is stronger than Hatake Sakumo.

From now unto eternity. Until such time as more evidence is provided, preferably via flashback, but maybe Kabuto made an Edo Tensei of him. You never know with that guy.

is there any evidence Tobirama can't use S/T jutsu the same level as Minato? no,Is there any evidence he can? No. Protip: Hype and evidence aren't the same thing.

then you listen to what Minato tells you.Minato can suck my balls.



is there any evidence of a prime Hiruzen not being the strongest Hokage of all time and strongest Kage? no,You mean other than literally everything? No. So if we discount everything we've ever learned about every other Kage in the series, then yes, Hiruzen can indeed be taken to be the strongest. Verily, your cunning argument has smote (Smitten? Smited?) me most terribly. Woe unto me, for I have been deftly defeated by your cunning strategy to discount the abilities of all the other Kages so that your favored character can seem stronger.

Tell me this. Is there any evidence of a prime Hiruzen being the strongest Kage of all time? Of course not. All we have is utterly baseless hype. And hype =/= evidence.

then you listen to the characters who said it and the author's statement in the databook.
The characters, the author and the databook can all suck my balls.

that's why Hashirama or Tobirama will stomp Mu from here to next Tuesday regardless of whatever you may think until such time as a flashback occurs to reveal the incapability of them, and prove the hype wrong.So what you're saying is, you're going to totally disregard all logic and operate based entirely on your own retarded fanboyism without regard for the fact that you're demonstrably wrong. Okay then.

if you can't prove the hypes or statements wrong, then assume they are right.That's not how logic works, Nancy. This isn't the American justice system where you're innocent until proven guilty, right until proven wrong. If you make a claim and you can't back that claim up with hard evidence, you're wrong. No ifs ands or buts about it.


what happens if a flashback occurs and Hiruzen poke down the Sun with Enma stuff? It will be discounted because it's obviously horseshit, owing the continued presence of the sun. Keep trying, Nancy.

Blah blah, useless whining.K.


you can't even prove current Onoki is stronger than Hiruzen by the time of his death, so this point contributed nothing.Firstly, I already have. Secondly, even if I hadn't, I wouldn't need to because Onoki's feats put him far above Hiruzen's hype so until you can find evidence that isn't hype and wankery, Onoki > Hiruzen in every conceivable way.

[GucciBandana]

First of all, take down the image if you don't want to get infracted for copyright reasons.

Second of all, 100 Jonin level ninja should > One Kage, right? No? That one Kage is the badass father of the badass 4th Raikage, the badass 3rd Raikage? You don't say! Yet Hiruzen spat some mud and stopped one attack. That's all. The 3rd Raikage PAWNCHED! a wall multiple times larger and stronger than Hiruzen's without any real effort by poking it.

Wood Release should logically not have any abilities regarding subduing Bijuu, but because of plot it does. Also, Yamato had the 1st's necklace to help him back then, which he doesn't now.

We did not see Hiruzen beat ANYBODY ANYWHERE in the manga. All his victories are hype or suicide bombings in the form of the Reaper Death Seal. He could be the same case as the 3rd Raikge stabbing himself, for all we know -- something of a fluke and the victim of exaggerated legends. It's often the case in reality, why not a manga? And Naruto threw a rhino the size of a skyscraper like a ragdoll. He beats them.

There was only one instance of Kakuzu using his Earth Spear, and then he got stabbed. True capabilities never seen, so it doesn't make sense to use it. C2 hit Sasuke multiple times but he brushed it off pretty casually. Konan hit Madara in the face and he just got pissed. And 6 billion only made him kill her all the more painfully. When a baby gets hit by exploding ANYTHING they die. Unless you're Superman or some crazy s*** like that.

Flies out of range of all of Hiruzen's Jutsu, spams Dust Release until the landscape is reminiscent of the Mojave. He simply dematerializes Enma if he gets too close. Dust Release fight with Muu proved the Jutsu to be incredibly fast. It caught Sasuke for a second when Onoki fought him (though he somehow escaped, despite reason saying otherwise), and Sasuke is certainly faster than Hiruzen.

since you saw the picture, it can be taken off.

100 Jounin? first of all, where did the "100" come from? 2nd, "Jounin"? how did you know this? I never said 3rd Raikage's finger jutsu wasn't impressive, but it wasn't necessary to compare it to Hiruzen's wall, Hiruzen didn't try to build a wall as thick as he can, he built it to stop the water, and it did.

why can Yamato hold on 4 tail Naruto, Kakashi can't? Wood release.

Hiruzen didn't beat anyone in manga, but how many fights did he lose?

lol flukes, that's like saying Wilt Chamberlain scored 100 points in NBA by the opposite team scoring in their own basket 50 times. "Hiruzen" isn't one battle, he's a 69 years old man.

lol flying out of range, what's the range of Enma? what happened to Mu's Jinton when it met Naruto's "extendable" arm? Jinton caught Sasuke, did Sasuke die? no he didn't, so either "Jinton can't win with one hit" or "Jinton didn't catch Sasuke". ur Sasuke argument is useless, because Sasuke didn't die, how do you know he can't escape Jinton giving the time Madara activated his S/T jutsu?

[Flying Fortress Skyfire]

And Onoki is an 80+ year old man and is still one of the strongest characters in the series. Gosh, it's amazing how easy it is to utterly demolish your "He's weak because he's old" argument.

[GucciBandana]

From now unto eternity. Until such time as more evidence is provided, preferably via flashback, but maybe Kabuto made an Edo Tensei of him. You never know with that guy.

Is there any evidence he can? No. Protip: Hype and evidence aren't the same thing.

Minato can suck my balls.

You mean other than literally everything? No. So if we discount everything we've ever learned about every other Kage in the series, then yes, Hiruzen can indeed be taken to be the strongest. Verily, your cunning argument has smote (Smitten? Smited?) me most terribly. Woe unto me, for I have been deftly defeated by your cunning strategy to discount the abilities of all the other Kages so that your favored character can seem stronger.

Tell me this. Is there any evidence of a prime Hiruzen being the strongest Kage of all time? Of course not. All we have is utterly baseless hype. And hype =/= evidence.

The characters, the author and the databook can all suck my balls.

So what you're saying is, you're going to totally disregard all logic and operate based entirely on your own retarded fanboyism without regard for the fact that you're demonstrably wrong. Okay then.

That's not how logic works, Nancy. This isn't the American justice system where you're innocent until proven guilty, right until proven wrong. If you make a claim and you can't back that claim up with hard evidence, you're wrong. No ifs ands or buts about it.

It will be discounted because it's obviously horseshit, owing the continued presence of the sun. Keep trying, Nancy.

K.

Firstly, I already have. Secondly, even if I hadn't, I wouldn't need to because Onoki's feats put him far above Hiruzen's hype so until you can find evidence that isn't hype and wankery, Onoki > Hiruzen in every conceivable way.

you say the guy owns Ramen Restaurant is stronger than Sakumo, that's the most important msg of ur reply.

there's no evidence of Tobirama can do it, no evidence he can't either, that's why you listen to what was STATED.

first of all, gimme any evidence of any Hokage being stronger than the old Hiruzen, that's only the old one, not the prime one I was referring to earlier.

there's no evidence of Hiruzen being the strongest Hokage, no evidence he isn't either, that's why you listen to what was STATED.

absence of evidence isn't the same as evidence of absence, if you find as evidence of a prime Hiruzen being weak, then tell me he's overrated, before that, stop saying he's overrated, because he was only "rated" so far.

if you are the author of Naruto, Im sure Hiruzen would be pretty weak, but too bad ur not :(


And Onoki is an 80+ year old man and is still one of the strongest characters in the series. Gosh, it's amazing how easy it is to utterly demolish your "He's weak because he's old" argument.

prove Onoki is 80+.
Hiruzen got weaker because he is old, Onoki isn't Hiruzen, is he?

[heroeking]

Onoki clearly rapes Hiruzen with manga feats, and even going by hype Onoki is stronger. Onoki's jinton was hyped to be island busting. Hiruzen was just claimed to know 1000 jutsu and be the strongest Hokage "At His Time". Which he probably was,,,,,,,,,,,

[Flying Fortress Skyfire]

you say the guy owns Ramen Restaurant is stronger than Sakumo, that's the most important msg of ur reply.

No, the most important message of my reply is feats > hype.

there's no evidence of Tobirama can do it, no evidence he can't either, that's why you listen to what was STATED.No, when there's no evidence for support and no evidence to deny, you go with deny, regardless of what's stated until such time as proper evidence is presented.


first of all, gimme any evidence of any Hokage being stronger than the old Hiruzen, that's only the old one, not the prime one I was referring to earlier.
Give me any evidence of any Hokage being weaker than the old Hiruzen, that's only the old one, not the prime one you were referring to earlier.

there's no evidence of Hiruzen being the strongest Hokage, no evidence he
isn't either, that's why you listen to what was STATED.
When there's no evidence for support and no evidence to deny, you go with deny, regardless of what's stated until such time as proper evidence is presented.

absence of evidence isn't the same as evidence of absence, if you find as evidence of a prime Hiruzen being weak, then tell me he's overrated, before that, stop saying he's overrated, because he was only "rated" so far.
That doesn't apply here. Absence of evidence very much is evidence of absence for all intents and purposes related to this conversation, this topic, literally everything about this section of the forums. Just because there's no evidence that he's weak, it doesn't make him strong.

Otherwise you might as well claim he's omnipotent because there's no evidence he isn't omnipotent.

If you want to wank and say that Hiruzen is above omnipotent, go to Character Talk or whatever, because your bullcrap has no place here.


if you are the author of Naruto, Im sure Hiruzen would be pretty weak, but too bad ur notHiruzen is weak regardless of whether or not I'm Kishimoto.


prove Onoki is 80+
Hiruzen got weaker because he is old, Onoki isn't Hiruzen, is he?His exact age isn't important, what's important is, people don't lose 99.9999999999% of their power just because they got old, as Onoki demonstrates. If Hiruzen were remotely as strong as he was claimed to be in his prime, his achievements in his 60s would be FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR greater than they are.

Onoki and Hiruzen aren't the same person, but they are both people. And once again, people don't lose 99.9999999999% of their power just because they got old, as Onoki demonstrates.

[321zigzag3]

http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/2/c/2cb85_ORIG-I_LIKE_WHERE_THIS_THREAD_IS_GOING.jpg

[TheBlackChidori]

Danzo may have never passed Prime Hiruzen, but looking at the two of them in old age, there is no way Hiruzen could have beaten Danzo.

[Super Sanin 3]

Danzo may have never passed Prime Hiruzen, but looking at the two of them in old age, there is no way Hiruzen could have beaten Danzo.
But remember they weren't comparing Danzo with like several sharingans transplanted into his arm

[Flying Fortress Skyfire]

A Danzo that still kept up pretty well with Sasuke(numerous deaths notwithstanding) and who's got a crazy awesome summon that imperils his enemies and enhances his jutsus.

[TheBlackChidori]

But remember they weren't comparing Danzo with like several sharingans transplanted into his arm

Well that's how Danzo became better. Implanting Uchiha and Senju DNA into himself.


Either way, you're still seriously downplaying Hiruzen. Regardless of how old he was, he was whooping Oro before the Edo summons.

And again, Orochimaru = 4-Tails.


Can we really downplay ET's anymore? The current ET's are just as strong as they were alive, and Orochimaru bloodlusted the Senju's.

[Bacon]

http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/2/c/2cb85_ORIG-I_LIKE_WHERE_THIS_THREAD_IS_GOING.jpg

`:P haha

[Flying Fortress Skyfire]

Orochimaru never came close to competing with 4TNaruto. He knocked him around a bit, but all that did was piss Naruto off.

Fighting and beating Orochimaru is meaningless. Orochimaru's greatest strength was his mind. He had a few skills but for raw power, he falls far short of the finish line.

If the Edo Senjus were displaying their greatest level of strength, then all that does is devalue them even further.

[Bacon]

Because it took orochimaru and 2 invulnerable Kage to kill hiruzen. By simple logic, prime hiruzen would be almost invincible.

[GucciBandana]

Onoki clearly rapes Hiruzen with manga feats, and even going by hype Onoki is stronger. Onoki's jinton was hyped to be island busting. Hiruzen was just claimed to know 1000 jutsu and be the strongest Hokage "At His Time". Which he probably was,,,,,,,,,,,

what does blasting an island have anything to do with being stronger? Deidara's C3 can blast a village, tell him to go beat Minato

No, the most important message of my reply is feats > hype.

No, when there's no evidence for support and no evidence to deny, you go with deny, regardless of what's stated until such time as proper evidence is presented.

Give me any evidence of any Hokage being weaker than the old Hiruzen, that's only the old one, not the prime one you were referring to earlier.

When there's no evidence for support and no evidence to deny, you go with deny, regardless of what's stated until such time as proper evidence is presented.

That doesn't apply here. Absence of evidence very much is evidence of absence for all intents and purposes related to this conversation, this topic, literally everything about this section of the forums. Just because there's no evidence that he's weak, it doesn't make him strong.

Otherwise you might as well claim he's omnipotent because there's no evidence he isn't omnipotent.

If you want to wank and say that Hiruzen is above omnipotent, go to Character Talk or whatever, because your bullcrap has no place here.


Hiruzen is weak regardless of whether or not I'm Kishimoto.


His exact age isn't important, what's important is, people don't lose 99.9999999999% of their power just because they got old, as Onoki demonstrates. If Hiruzen were remotely as strong as he was claimed to be in his prime, his achievements in his 60s would be FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR greater than they are.

Onoki and Hiruzen aren't the same person, but they are both people. And once again, people don't lose 99.9999999999% of their power just because they got old, as Onoki demonstrates.

yes feats > hype, that's if feats go against hype, we go with feats, in our argument, is this the case? no, we don't even have any feats of prime Hiruzen. and the old Hiruzen's feats aren't even weak, just because he was fighting 2 super strong enemy and not blitzing them like today's Kages against fodders doesn't make him "weak".

when there's no evidence for support and no evidence to deny, you go with what was stated.

Minato fought a masked Madara, baby rushed him but was scared sh*tless, masked Madara is weaker than prime Madara, prime Madara < Hashirama, and Hiruzen just beat Hashirama, Tobirama too, so only one you can argue being stronger than Hiruzen is Tsunade.

no evidence that he's weak, it doesn't make him strong, but saying he is the strongest Hokage does. if you can't prove "prime Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage" wrong, then you can't stop him from being strong.

Hiruzen is weak according to you, but he's strong according to Kishi, who should I listen to? tuff decision lol.

you trying to say everyone decline at the same rate, but no, people are different, normally people don't become puppet, Sasori styll did, normally people can't have 5 hearts, Kakuzu did, normal people don't live from getting stabbed in the heart, Hidan did, normally people don't decline as fast as Hiruzen, but Hiruzen did.

I will finish the rest of this tomorrow.

[321zigzag3]

I still petition this thread for lock.

[Flying Fortress Skyfire]

yes feats > hype, that's if feats go against hype, we go with feats, in our argument, is this the case?

Yes, though some exceptions may exist. Such as the Sage of Six Paths. But that's a special case, the exception that proves the rule as it were.

no, we don't even have any feats of prime Hiruzen.No feats = weak. Hype that is totally unsupported even peripherally = weak.

and the old Hiruzen's feats aren't even weak, just because he was fighting 2 super strong enemy and not blitzing them like today's Kages against fodders doesn't make him "weak".Blitzing would have been meaningless, considering their indestructibility.

He wasn't so much "Fighting two super-strong enemies" as he was "Barely holding off two improperly utilized and blatantly being held back from using their full strength allegedly-super-strong enemies"

Yes, compared to other Kages, Hiruzen's feats are weak.
No, compared to the likes of Shikamaru and Ino, his feats aren't weak.


when there's no evidence for support and no evidence to deny, you go with what was stated.
No. When there's no evidence one way or the other, you go with deny until real evidence comes along.

prime Madara < HashiramaFrom what we've seen of Hashirama, that is blatantly not the case, which means that either Hashirama's abilities far exceed what we've been shown, in which case, Hiruzen's ability to defeat his Edo is meaningless.

OR

Hashirama's defeat of Madara was not all that it seemed, and some unknown factor contributed to it. In which case Hiruzen's ability to defeat his Edo is meaningless.

So basically, you're screwed coming and going.


and Hiruzen just beat Hashirama, Tobirama too, Improperly utilized and holding back.

OR

Incredibly weak.

Take your pick, either way, Hiruzen's ability to defeat them means nothing.


so only one you can argue being stronger than Hiruzen is TsunadeNow you're just being ridiculous.

no evidence that he's weak, it doesn't make him strong, but saying he is the strongest Hokage does.No it doesn't. It's totally baseless in every possible way. Compared to every other Kage, he's got nothing, his only battle was against two equally featless individuals whose pasts were filled with inconsistencies and are thus unreliable in regards to their alleged power.

if you can't prove "prime Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage" wrong, then you can't stop him from being strong.Just the opposite, actually. If you can't prove "prime Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage" right, then you can't stop him from being weak.

Hiruzen is weak according to youHe's weak according to reason and logic. I am merely a humble purveyor of these things.

you trying to say everyone decline at the same rateNo, but the discrepancy is not that immense. Unless you can prove otherwise. But you can't, so there's no reason to explore that line of thought.

but no, people are different, normally people don't become puppet, Sasori styll did, normally people can't have 5 hearts, Kakuzu did, normal people don't live from getting stabbed in the heart, Hidan did, normally people don't decline as fast as Hiruzen, but Hiruzen did.


Hidan, Sasori and Kakuzu were all artificially extending their lives and their vitality. Unless Hiruzen did the same thing (in which case, he's even weaker than I gave him credit for) the comparison is pointless.


I will finish the rest of this tomorrow.Translation: You'll continue to wank and troll uncontrollably until the thread is closed because you're a wanker and a troll.

[Flying Fortress Skyfire]

I still petition this thread for lock.

I second that petition.

[ILIKEPIE]

I guess it's pointless to argue with people here about characters who lack feats for some reason or another

[321zigzag3]

I guess it's pointless to argue with people here about characters who lack feats for some reason or another

The main problem is this, Part 2 has the massive power inflation Part 1 did not have.

Since Old Hiruzen died before he ever got the Part 2 treatment minus Intelligence, we don't know what to go him by for.

There is nothing wrong in still believing his hype, its just his hype is too general. What do we base him on?

All he has shown is this.

Giant Earth Wall
Fire Dragon Missile
Shadow Clones
Multi-Shadow Clone shuriken
Dead Demon Consuming Seal
Monkey King Summon
Explosive Tags


Compare that to high and top tier Naruto characters in Part 2.
It just doesn't stack up very well.

His feat showings are just too weak for us to gauge him properly.
Debating by hype is better for the Towns bookstore or some other section.

For example Prime Hiruzen vs Muu.

"Prime Hiruzen is in his prime he should win."

"ok how"

"in prime mode he should be much faster and stronger"

"ok so how much faster and stronger"


See thats one simple measly example.

[Super Sanin 3]

I think people take this too deeply, speed should be general, EG somebody twice as fast as somebody else can still get hurt by other means, the speedblitzsotheycantdoanything logic rarely works

[TheBlackChidori]

It's true, Hiruzen has the hype to be at the top of the list. But unfortunately, his feats aren't enough. Neither were the feats of the Senju Edo Tensei.

So until we get a flashback of Hiruzen Prime, not much can be said.