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Phoenix Wright
08-13-2011, 11:52 AM
Well this has been done quite a few times, but none as recent as Chouji fought last. Just want to see what you guys think. I'll set some conditions so I don't have to use defaults no matter what they are.

Distance, 20 feet.
No knowledge, location some random forest clearing.
state of mind IC but to kill, Akamaru starts out in Kiba form to prevent anyone from using that against him for whatever reason. That should be good.

Remember the rules of debating, don't enter a thread with the mindset of "lol its a rape" but I'm pretty sure 90% of you just did.

megabbaut
08-13-2011, 12:06 PM
Perhaps with Kiba's speed that alone keeps him from being stomped on by Choji, then again Human Boulder would still give Kiba problems.

Super Sanin 3
08-13-2011, 01:19 PM
Don't forget Choji can go butterfly mode without the pills now

NagatoGod_of_Pain
08-13-2011, 02:00 PM
Not sure if Kiba can pull off a Fang Over Fang to Choji's face before Choji activates Butterfly Mode. It didn't seem like it takes long at all as Choji was sulking before he got PO'd and insta-turned into BM.

Vivi
08-13-2011, 02:21 PM
Perhaps with Kiba's speed that alone keeps him from being stomped on by Choji, then again Human Boulder would still give Kiba problems.

Make it Spiked Human Boulder as I am pretty sure Gatsuga can nullfy a normal one.

And when Gatsuga and SHB meets it's safe to assume both will take quite the damage.


However what Chouji is most likely unable to dodge is Garoga and when that hits it's over when it dented a Rashomon Gate and split Sakon and Ukon in half.

If Kiba can pull that off it's R.I.P. Chouji.

THE X UCHIHA
08-13-2011, 02:42 PM
Well this has been done quite a few times, but none as recent as Chouji fought last. Just want to see what you guys think. I'll set some conditions so I don't have to use defaults no matter what they are.

Distance, 20 feet.
No knowledge, location some random forest clearing.
state of mind IC but to kill, Akamaru starts out in Kiba form to prevent anyone from using that against him for whatever reason. That should be good.

Remember the rules of debating, don't enter a thread with the mindset of "lol its a rape" but I'm pretty sure 90% of you just did.

Choji stomps and yes it's a rape since u made the ST = 20ft only and this is ur fault.

20ft = 6.06 m

a baika no jutsu and both Kiba and Akamaru are crashed.

now if u want me to give u feats I can , but I will give 'em just in case everybody here didn't agree that Choji wins.

Vivi
08-13-2011, 03:42 PM
Choji stomps and yes it's a rape since u made the ST = 20ft only and this is ur fault.

20ft = 6.06 m

a baika no jutsu and both Kiba and Akamaru are crashed.

now if u want me to give u feats I can , but I will give 'em just in case everybody here didn't agree that Choji wins.

Then it's a good thing Kiba and Akamaru have Gatsuga to drill holes into him if he tries that.

THE X UCHIHA
08-13-2011, 04:07 PM
Then it's a good thing Kiba and Akamaru have Gatsuga to drill holes into him if he tries that.

then a Nikudan Sensha can tank them both c'mon what Holes u r talking about
Chouji's durability is considerably high.

However,when Choji Baika himself his hands would be 2 or 3 times bigger than both Kiba and Akamaru Gathered and keep in mind he wouldn't strike them with his tummy he would extend his enlarged arm ,jump and with a punch to the ground Kiba and Akamaru are stomped actually I'd say that Kiba and Akamaru could evade that attack by drill holes down into the ground but the 20ft distance doesn't help they barely would be able to start the attack on him.

and till now I still not talking about the butterfly bullet thing the technique that chouji become able to activate within a second and without eating any pills.

Amano Yukiteru
08-13-2011, 04:38 PM
Phoenix, I apologize for jacking your argument but I figured I might as well say something before you come up all like "Btf takin my argument :pek"

Choji stomps and yes it's a rape since u made the ST = 20ft only and this is ur fault.

20ft = 6.06 m

a baika no jutsu and both Kiba and Akamaru are crashed.

now if u want me to give u feats I can , but I will give 'em just in case everybody here didn't agree that Choji wins.

Stomp? I wouldn't call it that, I used to think Choji had a better chance of winning too but in all honesty here if Choji DOES win it's not going to be a rape at all.

Do you know how fast Kiba is? Even pre-skip he showed to be a speedster, not like Lee level but Naruto could hardly react and won only due to two things: combat genius and a lucky fart.

The only chance Choji has of killing this guy is going giant.

then a Nikudan Sensha can tank them both c'mon what Holes u r talking about
Chouji's durability is considerably high.

However,when Choji Baika himself his hands would be 2 or 3 times bigger than both Kiba and Akamaru Gathered and keep in mind he wouldn't strike them with his tummy he would extend his enlarged arm ,jump and with a punch to the ground Kiba and Akamaru are stomped actually I'd say that Kiba and Akamaru could evade that attack by drill holes down into the ground but the 20ft distance doesn't help they barely would be able to start the attack on him.

and till now I still not talking about the butterfly bullet thing the technique that chouji become able to activate within a second and without eating any pills.

Let's suppose Choji does try to attack that way. For one Kiba can dodge with his immensely superior speed. Secondly Gatsuuga drills hard enough to make Choji regret charging in. Now think of it this way, if you had a drill and you tried to smash it with your fist do you think that's going to turn out well? Heavily doubtful. Furthermore even though Choji may be giant and has momentum if anything that would just make slamming straight into a drill all the more painful.

If anything what's keeping Kiba and Akamaru from blitzing at a range like that? Choji goes "Baika no-" boom gets drilled. Not saying it's a sure blitz but if you think it's a stomp match here you are severely underrating Kiba.

Not only does Choji never actually go butterfly unless he's bloodlusted as well as in a confident mood, but even if he did then what's it going to do? He gains power yes, but if he can't hit Kiba then it's useless. I admit that if Choji lands one good hit on Kiba he's screwed, problem is that it's terribly unlikely Kiba would give him such an easy chance.

I really don't see how it is a rape, especially in Choji's favor. I used to think Choji would win too but Phoenix has convinced me otherwise.

THE X UCHIHA
08-13-2011, 05:06 PM
Phoenix, I apologize for jacking your argument but I figured I might as well say something before you come up all like "Btf takin my argument :pek"



Stomp? I wouldn't call it that, I used to think Choji had a better chance of winning too but in all honesty here if Choji DOES win it's not going to be a rape at all.

Do you know how fast Kiba is? Even pre-skip he showed to be a speedster, not like Lee level but Naruto could hardly react and won only due to two things: combat genius and a lucky fart.

The only chance Choji has of killing this guy is going giant.



Let's suppose Choji does try to attack that way. For one Kiba can dodge with his immensely superior speed. Secondly Gatsuuga drills hard enough to make Choji regret charging in. Now think of it this way, if you had a drill and you tried to smash it with your fist do you think that's going to turn out well? Heavily doubtful. Furthermore even though Choji may be giant and has momentum if anything that would just make slamming straight into a drill all the more painful.

If anything what's keeping Kiba and Akamaru from blitzing at a range like that? Choji goes "Baika no-" boom gets drilled. Not saying it's a sure blitz but if you think it's a stomp match here you are severely underrating Kiba.

Not only does Choji never actually go butterfly unless he's bloodlusted as well as in a confident mood, but even if he did then what's it going to do? He gains power yes, but if he can't hit Kiba then it's useless. I admit that if Choji lands one good hit on Kiba he's screwed, problem is that it's terribly unlikely Kiba would give him such an easy chance.

I really don't see how it is a rape, especially in Choji's favor. I used to think Choji would win too but Phoenix has convinced me otherwise.

I'm gonna ignore most of the pointless stuff u just wrote and pay little attention to the word "blitz" ... what u r talking about man it's only 6.1 m.

I'm gonna say it so Kindly all what u've given was fodders with no proof to support there's no way Kiba can take this match from such close distance.

also what u said about the butterfly , actually there is no such rule says that chouji won't go butterfly unless bloodlusted , c'mon it's his technique he used when bloodlusted that's right but it doesn't mean he can't use it when calm .. and by the way I even didn't mention that Chouji would use butterfly in my scenario I just stated that I still didn't talk about it.

actually don't care if Phoenix convinced u , and this is not gonna change the fact that u both wrong.

sorry if I was kinda serious with u but really what u said pissed me off 'cause it didn't make any sense at all and not to mention the way u described the butterfly " He gains power yes, but if he can't hit Kiba then it's useless. "

He can't hit Kiba ??!! I never saw Kiba with that great reaction speed so he can evade such powerful and rapid strike from 6.1 m which is so close, u even didn't prove that . u should know that Kiba is going to Gatsuga first and that means he has no intention to evade an attack unless Chouji started while chouji doesn't have to start the attack first .ok let's say Kiba and Akamaru evaded it one time unlikely , this doesn't mean they gonna evade it for ever

Amano Yukiteru
08-13-2011, 05:35 PM
I'm gonna ignore most of the pointless stuff u just wrote and pay little attention to the word "blitz" ... what u r talking about man it's only 6.1 m.

I'm gonna say it so Kindly all what u've given was fodders with no proof to support there's no way Kiba can take this match from such close distance.

also what u said about the butterfly , actually there is no such rule says that chouji won't go butterfly unless bloodlusted , c'mon it's his technique he used when bloodlusted that's right but it doesn't mean he can't use it when calm .. and by the way I even didn't mention that Chouji would use butterfly in my scenario I just stated that I still didn't talk about it.

actually don't care if Phoenix convinced u , and this is not gonna change the fact that u both wrong.

sorry if I was kinda serious with u but really what u said pissed me off 'cause it didn't make any sense at all and not to mention the way u described the butterfly " He gains power yes, but if he can't hit Kiba then it's useless. "

He can't hit Kiba ??!! I never saw Kiba with that great reaction speed so he can evade such powerful and rapid strike from 6.1 m which is so close, u even didn't prove that . u should know that Kiba is going to Gatsuga first and that means Chouji doesn't have to start the attack .ok let's say Kiba and Akamaru evaded it one time unlikely , this doesn't mean they gonna evade it for ever

If the distance is so small what's keeping Kiba, who has shown much more impressive speed than the vast majority of the rookies, from blitzing to begin with? As far as I remember the only rookies who ever showed more speed were Naruto (who was already leagues above the rest of them), Sasuke (same as previous), and Lee (who has been known for speed since his initial appearance). And Choji has been portrayed as slow in essentially every fight he's been in. Seriously, when have we even seen the guy do anything fast? If the distance is so short I don't see why Kiba can't outspeed him. Unless of course, you have the proof to show otherwise.

That statement was utterly pointless. What proof have YOU given? It's utterly rude and ignorant to tell someone in a debate that what they've given as points is crap just because you happen to disagree, especially when your points aren't substantial themselves.

If you actually paid attention to the Naruto characters you would know what the characters do in character and what they do not do in character. Do you honestly believe that a character will do whatever you want them to just because you say so? This is Naruto where Choji couldn't even use butterfly on his own before getting inspiration and a moment of courage as well as taking things seriously. You can't just say a character would use their best move at the beginning of the fight when they obviously wouldn't, that's like saying Itachi would use Susanoo on a friggin Genin just because he feels like it. Which is utterly stupid and supported by absolutely nothing.

LOL at you saying that we are 100% wrong, this is a debate, not a "Lol I win because I disagree and know that I'm definitely correct without any proof" fest here. You can't just waltz into a debate saying that everyone else is wrong, extremely inconsiderate as well as utterly arrogant to think that you are somehow smarter and more qualified than everybody else who disagrees with you. Get off your high horse and then debate.

Are you seriously that butthurt because of me saying that it's unlikely that Choji, who never showed impressive speed in the series, is going to have trouble hitting Kiba, who was blitzing Naruto, holding his own with Sakon and Ukon (who only survived Garouga because they were conveniently able to split apart), and has a databook speed of 4.5. Now I know most of you resent the databook and all, but think of it this way: It's Kishi's verdict on how fast he believes a character is. While they are bound to have some inconsistencies that does not mean that databooks are complete trash, that's like saying that what one debater says is wrong just because of a single stupid thing they could have said in the past.

Chapter 75 page 8, Kiba blitzes Naruto before he can do anything at all in the fight. On his own at that, Akamaru wasn't even assisting him there.

Chapter 77 page 9, Kiba casually moves behind Naruto in an attempt to attack him, and would have succeeded in landing a finishing blow if not for Naruto farting in his face.

Then there's Garouga which casually hit Sakon and Ukon, who were noted to be the strongest members of the Sound Four and have proved themselves competent in at least reaction speed, more so than anything I have seen from Choji.

These by the way are all pre-skip Kiba feats. You know, 3 years before the current Kiba who has definitely improved along with Akamaru who has significantly grown.

As for Choji one shotting at that range, why couldn't Kiba do the same? You're acting as if Choji has the one hit kill capacity at that range yet for whatever reason Kiba, who could be just as dangerous and is definitely much faster, can't do the same. Well let's suppose Choji attacks him and Kiba dodges, what does Choji do? Never has Choji shown the feats to do rapid fire attacks, it's a terrible assumption to think he can with his style of slow yet powerful hits. He doesn't spam attacks, he does all out slams in one go and needs time to recover before continuing with the attack, Kiba does not because his style has even been noted to be effective in attacking before the opponent can react and as shown with how he and Akamaru outmaneuvered Naruto, that attack speed is very, very fast.

The moment Choji is put on the defensive he will be very hard pressed to even try to attack Kiba.

Now go on and say that Choji stomps this without a doubt, get to know what you're debating a bit better before saying that a character can stomp with ease. Even if Choji here DOES win, it's NOT going to be a stomp because he's going to have a lot of trouble.

megabbaut
08-13-2011, 05:55 PM
If the distance is so small what's keeping Kiba, who has shown much more impressive speed than the vast majority of the rookies, from blitzing to begin with? As far as I remember the only rookies who ever showed more speed were Naruto (who was already leagues above the rest of them), Sasuke (same as previous), and Lee (who has been known for speed since his initial appearance). And Choji has been portrayed as slow in essentially every fight he's been in. Seriously, when have we even seen the guy do anything fast? If the distance is so short I don't see why Kiba can't outspeed him. Unless of course, you have the proof to show otherwise.

That statement was utterly pointless. What proof have YOU given? It's utterly rude and ignorant to tell someone in a debate that what they've given as points is crap just because you happen to disagree, especially when your points aren't substantial themselves.

If you actually paid attention to the Naruto characters you would know what the characters do in character and what they do not do in character. Do you honestly believe that a character will do whatever you want them to just because you say so? This is Naruto where Choji couldn't even use butterfly on his own before getting inspiration and a moment of courage as well as taking things seriously. You can't just say a character would use their best move at the beginning of the fight when they obviously wouldn't, that's like saying Itachi would use Susanoo on a friggin Genin just because he feels like it. Which is utterly stupid and supported by absolutely nothing.

LOL at you saying that we are 100% wrong, this is a debate, not a "Lol I win because I disagree and know that I'm definitely correct without any proof" fest here. You can't just waltz into a debate saying that everyone else is wrong, extremely inconsiderate as well as utterly arrogant to think that you are somehow smarter and more qualified than everybody else who disagrees with you. Get off your high horse and then debate.

Are you seriously that butthurt because of me saying that it's unlikely that Choji, who never showed impressive speed in the series, is going to have trouble hitting Kiba, who was blitzing Naruto, holding his own with Sakon and Ukon (who only survived Garouga because they were conveniently able to split apart), and has a databook speed of 4.5. Now I know most of you resent the databook and all, but think of it this way: It's Kishi's verdict on how fast he believes a character is. While they are bound to have some inconsistencies that does not mean that databooks are complete trash, that's like saying that what one debater says is wrong just because of a single stupid thing they could have said in the past.

Chapter 75 page 8, Kiba blitzes Naruto before he can do anything at all in the fight. On his own at that, Akamaru wasn't even assisting him there.

Chapter 77 page 9, Kiba casually moves behind Naruto in an attempt to attack him, and would have succeeded in landing a finishing blow if not for Naruto farting in his face.

Then there's Garouga which casually hit Sakon and Ukon, who were noted to be the strongest members of the Sound Four and have proved themselves competent in at least reaction speed, more so than anything I have seen from Choji.

These by the way are all pre-skip Kiba feats. You know, 3 years before the current Kiba who has definitely improved along with Akamaru who has significantly grown.

As for Choji one shotting at that range, why couldn't Kiba do the same? You're acting as if Choji has the one hit kill capacity at that range yet for whatever reason Kiba, who could be just as dangerous and is definitely much faster, can't do the same. Well let's suppose Choji attacks him and Kiba dodges, what does Choji do? Never has Choji shown the feats to do rapid fire attacks, it's a terrible assumption to think he can with his style of slow yet powerful hits. He doesn't spam attacks, he does all out slams in one go and needs time to recover before continuing with the attack, Kiba does not because his style has even been noted to be effective in attacking before the opponent can react and as shown with how he and Akamaru outmaneuvered Naruto, that attack speed is very, very fast.

The moment Choji is put on the defensive he will be very hard pressed to even try to attack Kiba.

Now go on and say that Choji stomps this without a doubt, get to know what you're debating a bit better before saying that a character can stomp with ease. Even if Choji here DOES win, it's NOT going to be a stomp because he's going to have a lot of trouble.
Choji can go butterfly mode instantly. He can't be blitzed. Also try not to make others feel stupid or incompetent in order to prove yourself right, kthxbye.

Amano Yukiteru
08-13-2011, 06:01 PM
* ignores *

So in short you have no counter to what I say, and you want to ignore what I said even though you blatantly claimed you were right and I was wrong? Lol concession accepted.

Choji can go butterfly mode instantly. He can't be blitzed. Also try not to make others feel stupid or incompetent in order to prove yourself right, kthxbye.

Instant is a term that should loosely be used. Instant is something like teleportation. Instant is basically if someone is faster than light the move gets used before said character can do anything to stop it. So no, it is not "instant".

Choji can't be blitzed? Why is this the case? He has shown himself to be one of the slower characters. Also I don't see how he could hit someone incredibly fast without turning giant.

How exactly have I made anyone feel stupid or incompetent? If anything you should direct that to the person who blatantly said I was wrong for thinking a fast character could blitz a slow one. Whether or not you disagree is irrelevant.

Must you troll me in every thread you see me in? Nothing was even directed at you yet you feel the need to bother me for no apparent reason.

Amano Yukiteru
08-13-2011, 06:04 PM
Oh, buddying up I see since apparently you don't feel like legitimately countering my post.

Fair enough, I should not have expected better in a forum like this.

J-Sun Tasogare
08-13-2011, 06:31 PM
X Uchiha stop spamming, everyone else causing problems stop.

Kuromaki
08-13-2011, 07:23 PM
Yeah dude if you're gonna ignore something then just ignore it, don't post saying you're ignoring it on purpose because it means that you haven't really ignored it at all.

Super Sanin 3
08-13-2011, 08:34 PM
Kiba's faster than Butterfly Choji?:|

Amano Yukiteru
08-13-2011, 08:36 PM
Kiba's faster than Butterfly Choji?:|

I don't see why not, Butterfly Choji never really showed anything that impressive in speed.

Kiba was shown to be a top tier speedster amongst the rookies even early on in the series, and he was fast enough with Dual Wolf Fang to actually get Sakon and Ukon.

Plus databook has him at 4.5 in speed so that means Kishi intended for Kiba to be a fast character.

Vivi
08-13-2011, 08:53 PM
I don't see why not, Butterfly Choji never really showed anything that impressive in speed.

Kiba was shown to be a top tier speedster amongst the rookies even early on in the series, and he was fast enough with Dual Wolf Fang to actually get Sakon and Ukon.

Plus databook has him at 4.5 in speed so that means Kishi intended for Kiba to be a fast character.

I say I am responsible for Chouji being fast.

Noticed it during the encounter with Jirobo when in Base he managed to be so fast that he got behind the entire Team without anyone noticing including a Byakugan Neji who stated he appearantly disappeared.
Only reason they noticed him was due to Kiba's Smelling Sense.
Chapter 188.

Yet Butterfly Mode Chouji effortlessly crapped on CS2.

Amano Yukiteru
08-13-2011, 08:55 PM
Well it seems like most of it can be attributed to him knocking the team down when he pulled out that giant piece of earth if anything.

As for Choji crapping on him I don't recall him ever blitzing, just stopping his punches and owning because he had the obvious strength advantage.

Vivi
08-13-2011, 09:02 PM
Well it seems like most of it can be attributed to him knocking the team down when he pulled out that giant piece of earth if anything.

As for Choji crapping on him I don't recall him ever blitzing, just stopping his punches and owning because he had the obvious strength advantage.

Actually Neji was still not noticing when he was getting up and got a firm position again.
Sorry I dunno how to say it otherwise.
And I don't see how knocking down affects the near 360 Vision of Byakugan.But oh well.


Chouji was on the Ground held down by Jirobo.
As Jirobo raised his Arm Chouji ate the last Pill.
Then he used Asshou and while it went to strike him Chouji got away and next thing we see is him standing with Chakra Wings quite the distance behind Jirobo.
Chapter 190 Page 14.
Varies on Site though as some have Artwork first.

Phoenix Wright
08-13-2011, 09:35 PM
Beat CS2 with ease? Last I checked Jirobou was easily the weakest of the four and did quite a number on Chouji afterwards. For someone who was half dead it sure took a lot out of him, butterfly or not. Even giant Chouji wasn't enough, why do you think he used butterfly in the first place?

Besides since when is that even a feat, a few weakened Jonin pushed the Sound Four to their limits and forced them into CS2 and still almost beat them.

Alright bitches, I'm back. Time to post finally.

Thanks Yuki for stealing pretty much everything I said to you in AIM and using it here >_>

Like how you were so confident for Chouji yet now that I'm done with you.... http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/kruemelmonsteryn0.gif

@X Uchiha, yeah that was basically a big fat concession, you don't ignore what people say because you can't counter them, man up and say you can't, don't say "you fail so I'm ignoring you", just makes you sound worse. Anyway.

20 feet being bad for Kiba? How so? Actually I'm pretty sure that helps Kiba out a lot more. The one thing everyone backing up Chouji forgot about was his all fours tech which is made for that type of offense, Chouji isn't as fast as he's made out to be, like running and regular running speed gonna die from an Asura missile. Why do yo uthink he has a 2 in the DB(and 1 for the past 2 DB) and Kiba has 4.5?

The point of the all four tech is to stay on the offense all the time, Chouji was never a very offensive person, go re-read that fight Kiba vs Naruto, yeah it's pretty IC for Kiba to just go for a blitz.

So Chouji gets knocked down, dodges(unlikely), whatever. The point of all fours is to stay on the offense, not giving the opponent time for a counter-attack. This is only further increased by Akamaru, 2 on 1 is hard as hell, I don't care who it is.

So Kiba attacks, Chouji dodges, there's Akamaru. Dodge? Kiba. Rinse and repeat, if he gets hit which he will, he either dies or goes on the ground. Point of all four tech, don't give time for a counterattack, that's when they attack him for real, they won't give time to get up like he gave Naruto time loads.

Plus Naruto was his freaking classmate for crying out loud. Like he's gonna kill his classmate I mean really, even when Kiba attacked him he hit him on the side. Kiba easily drills through whatever Chouji does, if he does get a chance to expand, Kiba goes Garouga and rips through Chouji, if Chouji tries to punch him/smack him etc Kiba's just going to drill through your hand, why don't you smack a drill with your hand coming at you, last I checked something that tore through a tree in an instant>>>someone's skin. His strength is just gonna increase it's power, Chouji's screwed no matter what way you look at it.

I get cut 1mm deep and it hurts like hell, stab a knife through your hand(Lol good luck drilling through it) and come back to me on how bad that hurts. But that's just assuming Chouji can transform off the bat, I mean Chouji won't be doing anything.

Giant Chouji smashed Jirobou into the ground and he was just sitting there between his hand and the ground like "lulz", it's highly overrated. I wouldn't call trees eye-size also, since Kishi's heavily inconsistent with his size and trees are about his hand size, yeah Chouji's screwed.

Dunno how much Yuki stole from our argument last night, but obviously he conceded, as usual. http://www.narutoforums.com/images/smilies/series3/2z7exox.png

Amano Yukiteru
08-13-2011, 09:39 PM
Actually Neji was still not noticing when he was getting up and got a firm position again.
Sorry I dunno how to say it otherwise.
And I don't see how knocking down affects the near 360 Vision of Byakugan.But oh well.


Chouji was on the Ground held down by Jirobo.
As Jirobo raised his Arm Chouji ate the last Pill.
Then he used Asshou and while it went to strike him Chouji got away and next thing we see is him standing with Chakra Wings quite the distance behind Jirobo.
Chapter 190 Page 14.
Varies on Site though as some have Artwork first.

Well it would disorient him enough to distract him as Jirobo moves so that he's not paying attention to what's going on, even if he has eyesight all around him if he's getting shaken as if there were an earthquake he's probably not going to be giving much attention to Jirobo, even if he did he couldn't have moved to do much about it.

I'm doubting that Jirobo went full on attack speed considering Choji appeared to be almost dead and Jirobo was overconfident in his victory. Even then we don't know if his attack speed is really that high and Choji didn't seem to be too far behind him. Moderately far but nothing that extreme.

TheBlackChidori
08-14-2011, 05:01 AM
Heh.

The fact that Choji was last seen holding Hizashi Hyuga in one hand, and crushing Kakuzu in his other hand, tells me that he's a little stronger then he used to be.

In a PTS fight, Kiba woulda taken this. But sadly, he hasn't shown any decent feats since his fight with Sakon/Ukon.

[Shikamaru]
08-14-2011, 05:12 AM
I don't see why not, Butterfly Choji never really showed anything that impressive in speed.

Kiba was shown to be a top tier speedster amongst the rookies even early on in the series, and he was fast enough with Dual Wolf Fang to actually get Sakon and Ukon.

Plus databook has him at 4.5 in speed so that means Kishi intended for Kiba to be a fast character.
Agreed.

However you don't need speed when you can multiple your size by 1000.

Crush Kiba. Game over.

THE X UCHIHA
08-14-2011, 07:45 AM
Heh.

The fact that Choji was last seen holding Hizashi Hyuga in one hand, and crushing Kakuzu in his other hand, tells me that he's a little stronger then he used to be.

In a PTS fight, Kiba woulda taken this. But sadly, he hasn't shown any decent feats since his fight with Sakon/Ukon.

totally, Kiba hasn't shown feats powerful enough to beat Chouji from the speedblitzing to the combating ,evasion and durability.

Phoenix Wright
08-14-2011, 02:09 PM
Lol really when the hell has Chouji shown any of that like being outrun while, well, running regularly, having a 1 in both DB bar the third which was a 2, and Kiba having 4.5, and Kiba able to spin so fast you can't see him, and have him got behind Naruto like effing ST, have him spin so fast just tha air around him gets cut, add a second Kiba to the mix and also add that it's 2 on 1 and not giving Chouji a chance to do anything, yeah. Nice conceding you did though to Yuki(myself in a way too). I love that. I've never seen anyone just up front say something like "I can't counter, straight up shouting it". Heh.

The fact that Choji was last seen holding Hizashi Hyuga in one hand, and crushing Kakuzu in his other hand, tells me that he's a little stronger then he used to be.

In a PTS fight, Kiba woulda taken this. But sadly, he hasn't shown any decent feats since his fight with Sakon/Ukon.
Except drilling through trees with ease, stuff like that? Yeah Chouji can fight against a FoF all he wants but, he's not gonna get far except further into digging his grave. Chouji's stats are crap, he's not Jounin level or anything I mean really, people using his Giant Chouji feats despite very weakened Jounin pushing the sound 4 to the limits and almost beating them, and even that form was easily taken out by the weakest(while I'd say Kiba did well against the strongest, Chouji would have been taken out in an instant).
;5429517']Agreed.

However you don't need speed when you can multiple your size by 1000.

Crush Kiba. Game over.
What's that gonna do when Jirobo was chilling under his hand? And crush Kiba? Swat a fly with your hand, did it die? Yeah didn't think so. Swat a spinning drill with your hand, what happened?

Multiplying your size by(what's actually more like 50), doesn't increase the durability of human skin last I checked especially compared to stuff like trees which was effortlessly torn through.

Yet again, this is even assuming Chouji gets some sort of chance to do anything, which he won't due to the very IC and Point of his form at all. Multiply with Akamaru, yeah we're good, Chouji gets stomped. Damn just reiterating now.

TheBlackChidori
08-14-2011, 02:25 PM
Except drilling through trees with ease, stuff like that? Yeah Chouji can fight against a FoF all he wants but, he's not gonna get far except further into digging his grave. Chouji's stats are crap, he's not Jounin level or anything I mean really, people using his Giant Chouji feats despite very weakened Jounin pushing the sound 4 to the limits and almost beating them, and even that form was easily taken out by the weakest(while I'd say Kiba did well against the strongest, Chouji would have been taken out in an instant).


... You seriously debating this?

Kakuzu and 1000 zetsus > Tree


You keep citing the sound 4 fight, but dude that was 3 years ago, and before Choji was able to freely go into Butterfly mode.

Choji stomped Jirobo. Yeah he's weaker then Sakon/Ukon. But Sakon beat Kiba. Kiba was ready to accept death, and if it wasn't for Kankuro's intervention, that would have happened.

Choji stopped CS2 Jirobo's punch with one hand. He didn't even have to look at Jirobo to do so, and this was a ninja who was too fast for Neji's eyes to follow, and who managed to capture all 5 Genin while in base form. He then killed him with ONE PUNCH.

Yeah, Kiba dented 1 Rashomon. 4-Tailed Naruto destroyed 3. And I don't think it's a far cry to say that current Butterfly Choji is as strong as 4-Tailed Naruto, considering Kakuzu has Iron Skin durability and an offense that overwhelmed Kakashi, Ino, Base Choji, Sakura, and Sai, and Choji has him crushed while holding Neji's dad in his other hand.

Hizashi is no slouch. We watched Hiashi Hyuga use a gigantic Rotation and take out 13 sound ninja in a second, as well as one-shot the head cloud ninja, and Hiashi dropped Hizashi with one strike once. Hizashi has rotation, and Butterfly Choji apparently can contain that in one hand.

Like seriously, there's no contest here.

I'll defend the power and speed of Kiba just like you, but not against Choji after the latest chapters. No way in hell. In hell.


Kiba's fast yeah. But all Choji has to do is take out Akamaru, and no WFoF.

Phoenix Wright
08-14-2011, 02:52 PM
... You seriously debating this?

Kakuzu and 1000 zetsus > Tree Yeah because that's related how? I was talking about it's destruction power not who Kiba can beat in a fight.
Tree>>>>>>>>>human skin.


You keep citing the sound 4 fight, but dude that was 3 years ago, and before Choji was able to freely go into Butterfly mode. Except where he did? And where that only reinforces my argument more, like, umm Kiba only getting that much stronger?

Hell Kiba in the time from Chuunin Exams to the time from Sakon/Ukon was already so much stronger meanwhile Chouji during that time was one-shot, then BARELY managed to defeat the WEAKEST sound Four WITH butterfly mode. Just think what Kiba can do in three years, LolChouji

Choji stomped Jirobo. Yeah he's weaker then Sakon/Ukon. But Sakon beat Kiba. Kiba was ready to accept death, and if it wasn't for Kankuro's intervention, that would have happened.Okay, so Sakon/Ukon>>>>>>>>Jirobo, Chouji>Jirobo, that makes it somehow a bad feat for Kiba to lose to Sakon/Ukon because Chouji could have beaten him somehow? I would not call that a stomp, in fact by BG standards I'd call that a tie, Chouji was out, and had to resort to his strongest tech to even stand a chance. And that finished him off right there.

Choji stopped CS2 Jirobo's punch with one hand. He didn't even have to look at Jirobo to do so, and this was a ninja who was too fast for Neji's eyes to follow, and who managed to capture all 5 Genin while in base form. He then killed him with ONE PUNCH. Alright? Like Jirobo isn't completely fodder for like 99% of the rest of the verse now anyway?

Yeah again I repeat, Chouji's not known for his speed, just lol at that one. I repeat for the fiftieth time, Byakugan is not sharingan. Neji seeing Jirobo is no different from Ino doing the same.

Yeah, Kiba dented 1 Rashomon. 4-Tailed Naruto destroyed 3. And I don't think it's a far cry to say that current Butterfly Choji is as strong as 4-Tailed Naruto, considering Kakuzu has Iron Skin durability and an offense that overwhelmed Kakashi, Ino, Base Choji, Sakura, and Sai, and Choji has him crushed while holding Neji's dad in his other hand. ROFL. Denting a Rashomon, yep there's another underrated jutsu for you. 4 Tailed Naruto? Really? Yeah because when I checked his feats, Chouji was disintegrating thousands of snakes with just a wave of his hand, creating massive crater-inducing shockwaves by just pushing towards the ground, in one LESS tail just his ROAR enough to send Kabuto flying back smashing into the forest..meanwhile his Menacing Ball which decimated the forest, yeah that makes Rashomon weak because...?

Hizashi is no slouch. We watched Hiashi Hyuga use a gigantic Rotation and take out 13 sound ninja in a second, as well as one-shot the head cloud ninja, and Hiashi dropped Hizashi with one strike once. Hizashi has rotation, and Butterfly Choji apparently can contain that in one hand. Except this isn't Neji vs Chouji, and you gotta have somewhere to rotate. Kaiten=/=FoF by far, besides that entire fight was off screen for all we know bunch of other people could have beat them while they just said "hang onto them since you're fat Chouji".

Because Kakuzu beating all of Team 10 simultaneously for lulz, hundreds of years of experience, attacks that can completely destroy gigantic trees dozens at a time and leave them in ashes, force people within hundreds of yards from his attack to resist being blown back, forcing Kakashi to Raikiri to counter his Raiton jutsu and still vaporize his clothes instantly and burn his hands, and Hizashi just being Hizashi, seems pretty consistent to me.

Like seriously, there's no contest here.I agree.

I'll defend the power and speed of Kiba just like you, but not against Choji after the latest chapters. No way in hell. In hell.So Chouji does what while Kiba appears in front of him and punches him to the ground? Dodge? Hit back? What about when Akamaru appears? Then Kiba gets his back? Akamaru gets his? Chouji gets knocked down? Getting back up? Good luck.


Kiba's fast yeah. But all Choji has to do is take out Akamaru, and no WFoF.Alright I doubt he needs it, and taking out Akamaru's gonna be an easy feat how? Two on one, damn people need to apply some common sense.

Man go outside, punch a tree as hard as you can. (Stop playing Minecraft http://www.narutoforums.com/images/smilies/series3/2z7exox.png)

Go fight one of your friends one on one thats about equal or better than you, get your ass kicked? Fare pretty well? Then fight someone weaker than along with someone considerably weaker as well(just to give you a chance). Yeah a lot harder huh? While you're busy with one guy, the other one can easily attack you from there, and the thing is that's the point of Kiba's jutsu, not giving time for counter-attack. This is only much further amplified due to Akamaru being there.

Seriously guys stop making me reiterate myself.

TheBlackChidori
08-14-2011, 02:59 PM
DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB

I can't do it. I already spent all my dumb-counters on that guy topic.

It's all yours vivi.

Phoenix Wright
08-14-2011, 03:01 PM
DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB

I can't do it. I already spent all my dumb-counters on that guy topic.

It's all yours vivi.
Concession Accepted.

TheBlackChidori
08-14-2011, 03:07 PM
DUMB!!!


I even used Century Gothic.

THE X UCHIHA
08-14-2011, 06:38 PM
Lol really when the hell has Chouji shown any of that like being outrun while, well, running regularly, having a 1 in both DB bar the third which was a 2, and Kiba having 4.5, and Kiba able to spin so fast you can't see him, and have him got behind Naruto like effing ST, have him spin so fast just tha air around him gets cut, add a second Kiba to the mix and also add that it's 2 on 1 and not giving Chouji a chance to do anything, yeah. Nice conceding you did though to Yuki(myself in a way too). I love that. I've never seen anyone just up front say something like "I can't counter, straight up shouting it".

man all those feats are weak enough to be unmentioned and even Chouji's regular feats can beat 'em like Nikuden sensha ( Human bullet tank ) by which he attacked kinkaku and no need to tell you what is Kinkaku doesn't this basic Akimichi clan technique at least as fast as Gatsuga ?! or faster or even more tankful. In recent chapters he used Calorie Control to create butterfly-chakra wings within moments and without the aid of the Three Coloured Pills and then with the Butterfly Bullet Bombing technique he punched Asuma into a nearby cliff causing him to Immobilized.
ok now lets say Chouji runs as regular as any normal ninja , now I want u to show me how Kiba running faster than Chouji, or at least faster than Konohamaru himself :lol:

Except drilling through trees with ease, stuff like that? Yeah Chouji can fight against a FoF all he wants but, he's not gonna get far except further into digging his grave. Chouji's stats are crap, he's not Jounin level or anything I mean really, people using his Giant Chouji feats despite very weakened Jounin pushing the sound 4 to the limits and almost beating them, and even that form was easily taken out by the weakest(while I'd say Kiba did well against the strongest, Chouji would have been taken out in an instant).What's that gonna do when Jirobo was chilling under his hand? And crush Kiba? Swat a fly with your hand, did it die? Yeah didn't think so. Swat a spinning drill with your hand, what happened?

I heard stats , lol do u use such garbage called databook 3 in the debate ??!! c'mon it's not up to date and u still stick with the sound thing and even didn't look the latest chapters up again.

Multiplying your size by(what's actually more like 50), doesn't increase the durability of human skin last I checked especially compared to stuff like trees which was effortlessly torn through.

what's wrong with u and the trees chouji crushed the ground with a baika no jutsu punch and u tell me trees ,furthermore; the durability of the skin become higher as the tissues size is increased and if not why could he punch the ground and crush it without even having his hand scratched while when a normal size hand gets damaged when punches the ground.

Yet again, this is even assuming Chouji gets some sort of chance to do anything, which he won't due to the very IC and Point of his form at all. Multiply with Akamaru, yeah we're good, Chouji gets stomped. Damn just reiterating now.

well I can't Imagine this , what is that giant thing that can stomp chouji.
Akamaru and Kiba get stomped with both chouji's hands and the 20ft distance makes it easier for chouji by the way.

NagatoGod_of_Pain
08-14-2011, 06:41 PM
Kakuzu didn't have Iron Skin during the war. He sent out all of his hearts once he obtained them. So Choji holding down Kakuzu isn't that impressive.

Amano Yukiteru
08-14-2011, 07:05 PM
man all those feats are weak enough to be unmentioned and even Chouji's regular feats can beat 'em like Nikuden sensha ( Human bullet tank ) by which he attacked kinkaku and no need to tell you what is Kinkaku doesn't this basic Akimichi clan technique at least as fast as Gatsuga ?! or faster or even more tankful. In recent chapters he used Calorie Control to create butterfly-chakra wings within moments and without the aid of the Three Coloured Pills and then with the Butterfly Bullet Bombing technique he punched Asuma into a nearby cliff causing him to Immobilized.
ok now lets say Chouji runs as regular as any normal ninja , now I want u to show me how Kiba running faster than Chouji, or at least faster than Konohamaru himself :lol:


Instead of dismissing feats as crap, stop with the unnecessary details and just get to the point.

What does attacking Kinkaku do in Choji's favor here? For one, Kinkaku was never known to be a speedster, secondly he was distracted blocking raining kunais so it made a clear opening for Choji to attack. Even then he tanked it like nothing so what's the epic feat here?

Please show me how Nikudan Sensha is as fast as Gatsuuga or Garouga. Unless you honestly believe Choji can blitz Sakon and Ukon the way Kiba did with Garouga.

We know Choji went butterfly on his own, but for one it's a one-time go, he can't use it all the time because it burns his fat off as chakra so after it's all used up that's it. Furthermore, he doesn't use this right away, it's not in character. And lastly even if he did who's to say he's actually going to hit Kiba, who has shown to be leagues faster?

I was going to ask if you ignored the chapters and pages I gave on Kiba's speed, but since you blatantly stated you did such then I suppose that's pointless. If you're going to ignore the evidence others give you in Kiba's favor then why even debate?

In fact I want you to give us proof that Choji is so fast, Kishimoto himself has asserted Choji as one of the slower characters and that Kiba was a faster one, so unless you've got legitimate proof to go against what the author himself intended then I'm going to stick with the guy who's written the story over what someone on a forum believes.

Lastly, lol at Konohamaru being faster than Kiba.


I heard stats , lol do u use such garbage called databook 3 in the debate ??!! c'mon it's not up to date and u still stick with the sound thing and even didn't look the latest chapters up again.
.

And yet I don't see any better evidence from you. What makes the databook so unreliable?

And it not being up to date is only in Kiba's favor because that means that Kiba could easily have improved since the overall superior stats he had to Choji. Unless you think that Choji learned something magical to denote a 2.5 boost in speed I'm gonna go on a limb here and say that Kiba's the superior in speed.

And claiming that someone hasn't looked up the latest chapters, is a poor, poor argument. Best to leave that out of the picture when you don't know that for sure.


what's wrong with u and the trees chouji crushed the ground with a baika no jutsu punch and u tell me trees ,furthermore; the durability of the skin become higher as the tissues size is increased and if not why could he punch the ground and crush it without even having his hand scratched while when a normal size hand gets damaged when punches the ground.


Don't see why size increasing makes Choji any more durable.

If you get a small blanket and compare it to a larger blanket, yes the size increases but is it suddenly that much more durable? It could very well be thicker but it's not going to get a godly increase.

As for Choji breaking trees that's his raw strength, says nothing about durability. Furthermore I'm pretty sure he needed to be giant for that to happen, something that I don't think would be very likely to happen in that match. Kiba has shown to use Gatsuuga right off the bat, Choji has hardly gone super giant and/or butterfly at the beginning of a match. Unless you think that generic Nikudan Sensha can oneshot Kiba when even Jirobo lol'd at it.

Think of it this way. If you slam your hand on a knife, it's going to be stabbed. Make your hand three times bigger, the result will still be the same, just perhaps lower scale.


well I can't Imagine this , what is that giant thing that can stomp chouji.
Akamaru and Kiba get stomped with both chouji's hands and the 20ft distance makes it easier for chouji by the way.

How about the fact that Kiba is significantly faster and has a style designed to not give the opponent time to counter attack?

Not to mention Garouga being able to oneshot Choji.

I honestly don't see how you think that at such a distance, Choji can turn giant, locate Kiba AND Akamaru, and then hit BOTH of them with his slow attacks in one go before they can do anything, in spite of them having a massive speed advantage.

Even if Choji does win, it is not a stomp in his favor and unless you give legitimate evidence I can't believe otherwise.

Phoenix Wright
08-14-2011, 08:31 PM
DUMB!!!


I even used Century Gothic.
So basically you call me dumb then say "lulz, but I can't prove it, someone else do it because I give up. Still dumb though."
man all those feats are weak enough to be unmentioned and even Chouji's regular feats can beat 'em like Nikuden sensha ( Human bullet tank ) by which he attacked kinkaku and no need to tell you what is Kinkaku doesn't this basic Akimichi clan technique at least as fast as Gatsuga ?! or faster or even more tankful. In recent chapters he used Calorie Control to create butterfly-chakra wings within moments and without the aid of the Three Coloured Pills and then with the Butterfly Bullet Bombing technique he punched Asuma into a nearby cliff causing him to Immobilized.
So tell me how human skin manages to prevent something that shred through a tree from shredding through it?
ok now lets say Chouji runs as regular as any normal ninja , now I want u to show me how Kiba running faster than Chouji, or at least faster than Konohamaru himself :lol:

Like appearing behind Naruto out from in front and surprising the audience when nobody could see him, again, moving so fast that the air around him slices, meanwhile speed from Chouji...?


I heard stats , lol do u use such garbage called databook 3 in the debate ??!! c'mon it's not up to date and u still stick with the sound thing and even didn't look the latest chapters up again.

Right...and what matters is it is quite up to date with his Butterfly Mode actually, and the only speed feat you people are even attempting to give about Chouji was way before the Databook rated him a 2. So "I can't counter this because Chouji gets stomped in speed so I'll say DB is crap"


what's wrong with u and the trees chouji crushed the ground with a baika no jutsu punch and u tell me trees ,furthermore; the durability of the skin become higher as the tissues size is increased and if not why could he punch the ground and crush it without even having his hand scratched while when a normal size hand gets damaged when punches the ground.Proof? Yeah size scales damage, since when does it scale the resistance it takes to being cut, if I cut gigantic Chouji's finger(like as big as a door) that specific part of the finger cuts just like regular skin, Kiba drills through with ease, again, I was comparing its destruction power to Chouji's crap skin which Kiba drilled through a tree, not "Lol compare their power plz!!" So Chouji smashes his hand into Kiba...again what's that do when Chouji's hand just gets drilled through..?



well I can't Imagine this , what is that giant thing that can stomp chouji.
Akamaru and Kiba get stomped with both chouji's hands and the 20ft distance makes it easier for chouji by the way.
Again I ask, for the third time now, how does it make it easier for Chouji? Kiba mass stomp in speed means he blitzes, even the one in a million Chouji reacts and/or dodges, Akamaru's right there and ready to get him down. Of course ignore the obvious feats and Imma have to reiterate myself again, but that's the whole point of the jutsu, and if Chouji gets hit once, even if he blocks, it is over.

TheBlackChidori
08-15-2011, 12:08 PM
So basically you call me dumb then say "lulz, but I can't prove it, someone else do it because I give up. Still dumb though."

It's moreso because you're a stubborn ass kid who won't listen to reason. If one fighter's best feat is defeating a Genin and holding his own against a tired out high-chunin, and the other's best feat is defeating an army of Zetsu and two high-level Jonin, one of which took out numerous chunin and fought and survived against the 1st hokage himself, who do you think is the better fighter?

You're just one of those douches who would believe the sky is green if it meant that you know you were right.

Arguing with you would be like arguing with a republican about religion. You already have a pre-processed opinion shoved so far up your ass that even Jesus can't change your mind.

Phoenix Wright
08-15-2011, 01:02 PM
It's moreso because you're a stubborn ass kid who won't listen to reason. If one fighter's best feat is defeating a Genin and holding his own against a tired out high-chunin, and the other's best feat is defeating an army of Zetsu and two high-level Jonin, one of which took out numerous chunin and fought and survived against the 1st hokage himself, who do you think is the better fighter?

You're just one of those douches who would believe the sky is green if it meant that you know you were right.

Arguing with you would be like arguing with a republican about religion. You already have a pre-processed opinion shoved so far up your ass that even Jesus can't change your mind.
Holy crap dude you totally got this all wrong. First, I don't know how many times it was said but I'll concede if I'm wrong. I'm not one of those douches, I want to keep it civil. You've seen those tards Kazumi and Frost and people like that? Yeah they ended up sounding completely retarded just so they didn't have to admit they were wrong. What exactly did I say that was so retarded just to not get proved wrong? Last I checked you said "DUMBBBB I CANT DO THIS SOMEONE ELSE DO IT BUT I REALLY CAN COUNTER IF I WANTED LOL". Dude you were one of my favorite debaters before but resorting to this when I thought you could be civil? Really?

I've been against this since I've been alive(on the forum lol), well, aside from my noob days, damn man where have you been. You're pulling the same crap on me that I've said about just about everyone else. Show me exactly where I said something retarded so I didn't have to "admit defeat" because I'd say you performed that "sky is green I am not wrong" deal here quite rather than me.

Republicans are ;););););););) retarded. End of story.

So basically you're agreeing in that post about what I've always been for, so I'm not gonna argue with anything except the fact you for some reason think I'm for the exact opposite. What happened to civil debates dude, you can't just say "DUMB", I mean if you're proved wrong about it just say so, it's not a big deal, the only reason everyone THINKS it's a big deal is because everyone's too damn prideful to do it. There's no other reason to not counter.

Either you counter it normally, or there's gonna be some magical reason why you won't like "ur stupid I'm done" or that X UCHIHA guy all "*ignores*". I would say counter normally then but you might refuse because you can't. In most cases when someone does something like that, they're to the "derp sky is green" point just so they don't have to admit.

I'll say I'm wrong when I am, I want to make sure people man up and admit when they're wrong and not just troll for hours on end about retarded ;);););) like people like Kazumi.

It doesn't matter what Chouji did since you're the one comparing feats in the first place, like I said it was off screen and Kiba drilled through a tree(which is irrelevant since for some reason you're mentioning him defeating a genin or something like that), Chouji still has his regular body, how you think he can do anything about it and Kiba's fighting style which is designed just for that reason you have yet to tell me other than "DUMB WITH NO REASON". Please, keep it civil, I like, or at least liked you, but you got everything wrong. I debate to have fun. And I was having it.

When people refuse to admit defeat then that's when I push them to do it because they know they can't counter and everyone else knows. No big deal, if you're wrong just say it. Seriously, what's so wrong about that? Is everyone really prideful like that? Gonna rant after the next 2 paragraphs about this one.

Mainly I really push people though, I'm just kindly asking you and letting you know if you're wrong not to sound retarded and just admit and all that, but I know you're not gonna be civil and respond raging at me or something but we'll see. I mean that is basically what you just said about me, which is just sad considering all I debate for most of the time.

Seriously dude, just a reminder, keep it civil, I didn't get mad but then you raged and flamed at me which was pretty :roll: considering I thought you were a good, civil debater who wasn't for that kinda stuff.

Rant time.
Remember back in the old times of the BG? You were actually there TBC so you remember, when everyone posted, "I think Neji beats Lee!" "I agree with ____!" and so on? Then someone would come along "No, Lee beats Neji, he can't really stop his gates remember how fast he was you couldn't even see him!" something like that, "Well what about _______?" "Lee could get by that because __________." "Oh wow you're good! You're right, Lee wins!" then they'd switch sides and start to debate for Lee. Remember those days? Those days were the best.

Then the OBD came and warped everyone and everything, and EVERYONE became so prideful that "Lol I'm not gonna admit no matter what, wait crap I'm proved wrong, good luck getting me to admit time to troll".

Why do you think I'm for that, I loved those days, I want people to learn to admit, I do this to my AIM buddies so much, that's freaking admit defeat central, I do it, they do it, actualy it doesn't matter how many each of us do it, it's that we do it when we're proved wrong.

Once I dealt with like everyone in AIM now everyone admits all the time in there, when we're wrong we admit, nobody is super prideful where they'll go to the ends of the earth just not to admit they're wrong. Almost everyone is like that nowadays. And civil? Hell no, nobody could keep it civil anymore, not a chance in the world.

You were the best shot, I thought you might debate for what I debate for. Surprisingly I just saw, yeah you do in a way. Except you thought I was against that exactly, which was wrong beyond words. Plus you flamed and all that which made me disappointed, so yeah...but yeah just keep it civil and don't rage or stuff like that, and please, don't fall into the same trap you're accusing of anyone else of falling into, but not countering simply with the reason I'm too dumb to counter makes it seem like you're doing the same thing.

If you're wrong, admit defeat! No big deal. Same goes for everyone, I hope everyone read that. Most are already lost like Kazumi and Frost. We should just kill those guys to prevent them from breeding. (totally not srs, but LOL)

TheBlackChidori
08-15-2011, 01:27 PM
I apologize for raging, I was heated from my Might Guy topic. Maybe I'll come up with ligit counter-points later, but I still really think this is

DUMB

TheBlackChidori
08-15-2011, 01:27 PM
Fail.

Phoenix Wright
08-15-2011, 01:50 PM
It's alright, but point was I thought you debated for the reasons I debated for but it turns out you were just for the "debate until proved wrong, then ditch" deal.

You can counter later and I'll be waiting, but until then, concession accepted since as of yet you can't.

THE X UCHIHA
08-15-2011, 02:06 PM
chill out u two , it's a game u loose one time u win another ,there's no one perfect .
u have point phoenix but believe me it's not gonna make Kiba the winner.

Phoenix Wright
08-15-2011, 02:14 PM
Exactly. He conceded as of now anyway so it's all good, he's chill now. I think.

So you're not gonna debate at all, you're still saying "Chouji is the winner, yet I can't counter Phoenix or Yuki's posts about Kiba and my arguments were beaten, but I still think Chouji wins". In this situation, you man up and say: I, THE X UCHIHA, was wrong, Kiba>Chouji.

Then you start debating on Kiba's side. You can be the first to start the New World of Debating with admitting defeat. So do that, or you could alternatively counter Yuki's post that you said you ignored, and also mine(if I was talking to you which I don't remember if I was).

Otherwise say you were wrong, and start debating on Kiba's side because right now you know he wins. Or at least just say you were wrong. You don't have to debate for Kiba because I know this forum has a lot to learn and just admitting they were wrong is enough for now, taking it slow.

In the future everyone will say "wow it was all thanks to THE X UCHIHA that we can all have fun and admit defeat today!"

I'm not putting words in your mouth I'm just saying if you know you're wrong say so. >=(

THE X UCHIHA
08-15-2011, 07:19 PM
Exactly. He conceded as of now anyway so it's all good, he's chill now. I think.

great.

So you're not gonna debate at all, you're still saying "Chouji is the winner, yet I can't counter Phoenix or Yuki's posts about Kiba and my arguments were beaten, but I still think Chouji wins". In this situation, you man up and say: I, THE X UCHIHA, was wrong, Kiba>Chouji.

man I just said my opinion so I don't care who wins.
I'm totally convinced that I'm not wrong and that's enough for me

actually I stopped debating when I saw TBC spamming.

Then you start debating on Kiba's side. You can be the first to start the New World of Debating with admitting defeat. So do that, or you could alternatively counter Yuki's post that you said you ignored, and also mine(if I was talking to you which I don't remember if I was).

what Kiba side ??!! lol ,I could debate with u more but then I'd get angry and spam like TBC did and I don't wanna get warned by a FAIL for such ridiculous thing.

Otherwise say you were wrong, and start debating on Kiba's side because right now you know he wins. Or at least just say you were wrong. You don't have to debate for Kiba because I know this forum has a lot to learn and just admitting they were wrong is enough for now, taking it slow.

Kiba can't tank the Nikudo sunshin.
Kiba can't blitz chouji while butterfly.

In the future everyone will say "wow it was all thanks to THE X UCHIHA that we can all have fun and admit defeat today!"
I'm not putting words in your mouth I'm just saying if you know you're wrong say so. >=(

you know what , you're pissed 'cause no one agreed with u now just stop posting in this thread and wait the others to judge your posts , u did ur best so u have nothin' to add just wait and see.

Phoenix Wright
08-15-2011, 08:34 PM
man I just said my opinion so I don't care who wins.
I'm totally convinced that I'm not wrong and that's enough for me

actually I stopped debating when I saw TBC spamming.
If you're totally convinced you should be able to counter my points, if you can't counter the points about why Chouji can't win, then you know and think he can't win, simple as that.


what Kiba side ??!! lol ,I could debate with u more but then I'd get angry and spam like TBC did and I don't wanna get warned by a FAIL for such ridiculous thing. You don't have to get angry, I thought debating was supposed to be civil, see now you BG High and Mighty Mods are getting people to think they're afraid to debate or they think if they DO get into a debate they think that all debates end up angry and aren't fun. -_-



Kiba can't tank the Nikudo sunshin.
Kiba can't blitz chouji while butterfly.Chouji can't use it because he gets attacked from the get-go, and Chouji still has a 2 in speed after using butterfly.



you know what , you're pissed 'cause no one agreed with u now just stop posting in this thread and wait the others to judge your posts , u did ur best so u have nothin' to add just wait and see.
you know what , you're pissed 'cause ur posts were disagreed with , and u can't counter them , so u need to stop actin' like you can if you want but aren't because we're not worth it.

Seriously dude just have a fun civil debate, when your arguments are beaten(which they were considering you just now admitted you couldn't counter), admit Kiba wins. That's how it works. If your arguments as to why you think Chouji wins were all countered, then you don't think Chouji wins, you make no sense, I mean even you will do whatever it takes to not admit.

"You proved all my points wrong about why Chouji wins and I can't counter them and you're right, but Chouji still wins."

Super Sanin 3
08-15-2011, 08:38 PM
Chouji can't use it because he gets attacked from the get-go, and Chouji still has a 2 in speed after using butterfly.
When you say a 2 in speed for butterfly mode i'm assuming it's not the databook 2 stats right? Never liked the databook anyways

LOL i just realized Choji went from 1.5 in handseals to 1 from 2nd to 3rd databook

Amano Yukiteru
08-15-2011, 09:15 PM
When you say a 2 in speed for butterfly mode i'm assuming it's not the databook 2 stats right? Never liked the databook anyways

LOL i just realized Choji went from 1.5 in handseals to 1 from 2nd to 3rd databook

Well judging from the edit you probably already checked but yeah it's the third one.

And I lol'd at Choji's handseal score decreasing too.

Super Sanin 3
08-15-2011, 09:33 PM
Well judging from the edit you probably already checked but yeah it's the third one.

And I lol'd at Choji's handseal score decreasing too.
That sounds like choji's base speed imo...
I don't go by databooks anyway because it's not always accurate(seriously, it went down :()

Phoenix Wright
08-15-2011, 09:55 PM
Alright so butterfly mode somehow bumps him up into the 4.5's or higher? I mean even Sasuke falls into that category. Chouji's slow, Kishi tends to use people's overall speed, he doesn't consider "well this is base form and this is..." yada yada when he writes the DB stats.

Super Sanin 3
08-15-2011, 10:23 PM
But it's not always the case

BTW look at chapter 190 page 14, it seems like he was fast enough to get behind Jirobo before he striked Choji WHILE he was taking the pill and on the ground. So even if Kiba was faster i wouldn't really call it a blitz

Amano Yukiteru
08-15-2011, 10:40 PM
Well even then Jirobo was overconfident and figured Choji was pretty much dead, he wasn't going to go all out attack speed with that last strike. Even if he did we can't say how fast it is, plus Choji didn't even move that far away when the attack came.

Plus DB had Jirobo at a 2 in speed so even if we can say Choji blitzed him that shouldn't be all too impressive.

Super Sanin 3
08-15-2011, 10:48 PM
Well even then Jirobo was overconfident and figured Choji was pretty much dead, he wasn't going to go all out attack speed with that last strike. Even if he did we can't say how fast it is, plus Choji didn't even move that far away when the attack came.

Plus DB had Jirobo at a 2 in speed so even if we can say Choji blitzed him that shouldn't be all too impressive.
I still can't see Kiba going at that speed, yeah he does seem kinda fast to me but i never pictured him as that fast
(Gah more DB stats`!:) Gaara has a 3 in speed so it must refer to his sand, just showing it doesn't mean his REAL speed)

Amano Yukiteru
08-15-2011, 10:58 PM
I still can't see Kiba going at that speed, yeah he does seem kinda fast to me but i never pictured him as that fast
(Gah more DB stats`!:) Gaara has a 3 in speed so it must refer to his sand, just showing it doesn't mean his REAL speed)

Well he showed himself as a speedster even early on in the series, logically three years later with more training he's gotta be faster.

Plus even if people don't like the databook, it's still what Kishi has dictated to be an overall guide to how good particular characters are in various areas. Now some of them might be a bit far fetched, but unless there's something blatantly contradicting what is said there I wouldn't say that the databooks are completely unreliable.

Super Sanin 3
08-16-2011, 08:24 AM
Well he showed himself as a speedster even early on in the series, logically three years later with more training he's gotta be faster.

Plus even if people don't like the databook, it's still what Kishi has dictated to be an overall guide to how good particular characters are in various areas. Now some of them might be a bit far fetched, but unless there's something blatantly contradicting what is said there I wouldn't say that the databooks are completely unreliable.
Mmm okay awake now ;). But the thing is we don't know transformation speed, so we can't assume ButterFly Choji is still tier 2 speed, it would be like saying Rock Lee has same speed base and 5th gates, don't forget he went from totally beaten up to full strength behind him (if he WAS full strength)

Amano Yukiteru
08-16-2011, 10:07 AM
Mmm okay awake now ;). But the thing is we don't know transformation speed, so we can't assume ButterFly Choji is still tier 2 speed, it would be like saying Rock Lee has same speed base and 5th gates, don't forget he went from totally beaten up to full strength behind him (if he WAS full strength)

Well I don't see why Butterfly would give Choji a massive speed boost, only reason I could see why is because the calories become chakra but even then that alone doesn't mean that Choji losing some weight would make him significantly faster, if at all.

Difference with gates is that we know that Lee got a crapload faster with gates than in base, that's been something that anyone could tell for a while now. Butterfly only really proved to give a massive boost to, if anything, strength, rather than an area such as speed.

People only gave one possible instance of Choji not being super slow but even then the databook after gave him a 2 so there's a problem there.

Btw thanks for actually being civil here, certain people in particular don't seem to understand that debates don't involve spamming and deliberately ignoring posts because they don't like to be proven wrong.

Super Sanin 3
08-16-2011, 10:19 AM
Well I don't see why Butterfly would give Choji a massive speed boost, only reason I could see why is because the calories become chakra but even then that alone doesn't mean that Choji losing some weight would make him significantly faster, if at all.

Difference with gates is that we know that Lee got a crapload faster with gates than in base, that's been something that anyone could tell for a while now. Butterfly only really proved to give a massive boost to, if anything, strength, rather than an area such as speed.

People only gave one possible instance of Choji not being super slow but even then the databook after gave him a 2 so there's a problem there.

Btw thanks for actually being civil here, certain people in particular don't seem to understand that debates don't involve spamming and deliberately ignoring posts because they don't like to be proven wrong.
Lol no problem maybe we can set the mood for future debaters:D
Well i mean imagine you were lying on the ground with a fist flying at you, then you somehow stand up behind your opponent after you showed no such speed, we didn't see much of butterfly choji during the fight but since he never showed the speedfeat from before i'd assume he gained speed from it. And don't forget it just takes 1 hit from his new strength. Maybe we'll see Kiba get a big powerboost in this war (but unlikely) then the tables will probably turn

Amano Yukiteru
08-16-2011, 11:00 AM
Lol no problem maybe we can set the mood for future debaters:D
Well i mean imagine you were lying on the ground with a fist flying at you, then you somehow stand up behind your opponent after you showed no such speed, we didn't see much of butterfly choji during the fight but since he never showed the speedfeat from before i'd assume he gained speed from it. And don't forget it just takes 1 hit from his new strength. Maybe we'll see Kiba get a big powerboost in this war (but unlikely) then the tables will probably turn

It was a moderately impressive speed feat but even then Jirobo's attacking speed was never really that fast. Even if he did gain some speed I don't know how much it really was since it couldn't have been a super significant boost.

If Choji actually did land a hit on Kiba in butterfly it's pretty much over but that'd be a difficult task considering Kiba is very agile. Plus with Akamaru Choji would be double teamed so that would make it even harder for Choji to win the fight.

A lotta people in the thread seem to think "Lol Choji goes butterfly and rapes" too even though it's not really in character for him to do that. The only time he ever did was when it was an extreme necessity and he was fighting in a war trying to help his comrades and even then it was after he gained a lot of self confidence. I mean otherwise Kiba just starts with Garouga and that'd be pretty stupid, ya know?

Super Sanin 3
08-16-2011, 11:13 AM
It was a moderately impressive speed feat but even then Jirobo's attacking speed was never really that fast. Even if he did gain some speed I don't know how much it really was since it couldn't have been a super significant boost.

If Choji actually did land a hit on Kiba in butterfly it's pretty much over but that'd be a difficult task considering Kiba is very agile. Plus with Akamaru Choji would be double teamed so that would make it even harder for Choji to win the fight.

A lotta people in the thread seem to think "Lol Choji goes butterfly and rapes" too even though it's not really in character for him to do that. The only time he ever did was when it was an extreme necessity and he was fighting in a war trying to help his comrades and even then it was after he gained a lot of self confidence. I mean otherwise Kiba just starts with Garouga and that'd be pretty stupid, ya know?
Oh i'm not saying he's gonna start it instantly, just he can. If i remember right kiba usually spams fang passing fang at the begining, but i'm hesitant to say it would work on choji since Sakon/Ukon were able to catch them in the act. Plus Choji can turn HUGE, even bigger than the double-headed wolf, plus if he WAS in Butterfly mode i think if he super punched them when they use fang wolf fang it would probably hurt them back

Amano Yukiteru
08-16-2011, 11:42 AM
Oh i'm not saying he's gonna start it instantly, just he can. If i remember right kiba usually spams fang passing fang at the begining, but i'm hesitant to say it would work on choji since Sakon/Ukon were able to catch them in the act. Plus Choji can turn HUGE, even bigger than the double-headed wolf, plus if he WAS in Butterfly mode i think if he super punched them when they use fang wolf fang it would probably hurt them back

It is something he can do, just pointing out that other people here seem to get this idea that a character starts out with their best move in a fight, which is almost never true unless they're either showing off or bloodlusted enough to want to kill immediately.

Well I think that Sakon and Ukon catching Fang Passing Fang could probably be attributed to reactions more than anything, though it is hard to say because them catching the technique was off panel, all we know is that they were able to effectively counter.

Going giant is one of the ways I can imagine Choji winning, if only for the fact that his attacks have much more AoE. Problem is that his attacks would probably be really slow and predictable, and if it were a contest between Garouga vs Giant Choji, even though Giant Choji has a lot of strength, an attack like Garouga would probably just drill right through him.

The thing is that it might do damage to Kiba but if Choji is butterfly and punches through an attack that moves so fast even the air could slice the opponent if it misses, it would probably do more damage to him because of the exceedingly destructive nature of the attack. After all, it did take a Rashomon gate to stop pre-skip Garouga and even then it dented it pretty well.

Super Sanin 3
08-16-2011, 11:56 AM
It is something he can do, just pointing out that other people here seem to get this idea that a character starts out with their best move in a fight, which is almost never true unless they're either showing off or bloodlusted enough to want to kill immediately.

Well I think that Sakon and Ukon catching Fang Passing Fang could probably be attributed to reactions more than anything, though it is hard to say because them catching the technique was off panel, all we know is that they were able to effectively counter.

Going giant is one of the ways I can imagine Choji winning, if only for the fact that his attacks have much more AoE. Problem is that his attacks would probably be really slow and predictable, and if it were a contest between Garouga vs Giant Choji, even though Giant Choji has a lot of strength, an attack like Garouga would probably just drill right through him.

The thing is that it might do damage to Kiba but if Choji is butterfly and punches through an attack that moves so fast even the air could slice the opponent if it misses, it would probably do more damage to him because of the exceedingly destructive nature of the attack. After all, it did take a Rashomon gate to stop pre-skip Garouga and even then it dented it pretty well.
You're right not many ninja pull out their ultimate move unless really forced to.

The thing is they're spinning, i don't understand how they were able to catch him hand to hand. But remember Choji's attack was strong enough to break through the mud dome while Kiba/Akamaru's attacks seem to just dent it.

Well, if you check chapter 189 page 16/17(when he uses mega multi-size no jutsu) it seems he can hold trees with his bare hands, Kiba's gonna have a hard time dodging that, especially if he jumps on him like he did to Jirobo.

But don't forget Choji can use Bullet Bombing and be a giant at the same time (chapter 534 page 7)

Amano Yukiteru
08-16-2011, 12:36 PM
You're right not many ninja pull out their ultimate move unless really forced to.

The thing is they're spinning, i don't understand how they were able to catch him hand to hand. But remember Choji's attack was strong enough to break through the mud dome while Kiba/Akamaru's attacks seem to just dent it.

Well, if you check chapter 189 page 16/17(when he uses mega multi-size no jutsu) it seems he can hold trees with his bare hands, Kiba's gonna have a hard time dodging that, especially if he jumps on him like he did to Jirobo.

But don't forget Choji can use Bullet Bombing and be a giant at the same time (chapter 534 page 7)

That's why I'm thinking it could very well involve reactions, though we can't really say for sure. Choji definitely has the upper hand in strength, but the drawback is that his attack speed can't really match up to most people of that level. Kiba may not be as powerful overall, but with a significant speed advantage he could certainly hold his own.

The way he used it on Jirobo is one reason why I initially thought Choji would win. But it seems like the only reason it worked that way was because Jirobo knocked him in the air and Choji took the opportunity to attack like that. I doubt that he would get the very same chance if he were to fight Kiba and Akamaru.

I'd be more inclined to think Garouga would win overall though since unless the sheer force is significantly stronger, piercing damage would probably just drill through the attack. Though it depends on if they even have a head on collision since Garouga attacks in the direction that it smells so unless Akamaru pisses on Choji's fist that would probably not happen anyway.

Super Sanin 3
08-16-2011, 12:48 PM
That's why I'm thinking it could very well involve reactions, though we can't really say for sure. Choji definitely has the upper hand in strength, but the drawback is that his attack speed can't really match up to most people of that level. Kiba may not be as powerful overall, but with a significant speed advantage he could certainly hold his own.

The way he used it on Jirobo is one reason why I initially thought Choji would win. But it seems like the only reason it worked that way was because Jirobo knocked him in the air and Choji took the opportunity to attack like that. I doubt that he would get the very same chance if he were to fight Kiba and Akamaru.

I'd be more inclined to think Garouga would win overall though since unless the sheer force is significantly stronger, piercing damage would probably just drill through the attack. Though it depends on if they even have a head on collision since Garouga attacks in the direction that it smells so unless Akamaru pisses on Choji's fist that would probably not happen anyway.

Mmm I would say Choji would be able to stop it using Mega Palm Thrust, but if fang passing fang is really piercing how could they stop it even with reactions? They'd have to catch him mid-air while spinning as they're being attacked with force against them. Kiba would be faster than Choji but also he won't make multiple turns at the last second so he wouldn't be able to defend himself.

However imagine yourself in Kiba's case when Choji turns giant, i don't think fang passing fang would cut it, neither damage nor for their safety. So without transforming into their twin-headed wolf they wouldn't be able to hurt him, and judging by his size they'd be running for their life if he decided to jump on them.

As for fang wolf fang vs giant bullet bombing, imagine going face first into that huge, powerful punch. Oh yeah it would hurt, badly too, but then again it's not a vital spot either.

Lol SuperChoji came out of nowhere. Wonder where everybody else is

Super Sanin 3
08-16-2011, 01:00 PM
BTW here is a few of choji's feats

Chapter 189 page 16 and 17 - Choji's size when giant
Chapter 534 page 7 - Choji's Giant Butterfly Bullet bombing

THE X UCHIHA
08-16-2011, 02:01 PM
If you're totally convinced you should be able to counter my points.

I did.

You don't have to get angry, I thought debating was supposed to be civil, see now you BG High and Mighty Mods are getting people to think they're afraid to debate or they think if they DO get into a debate they think that all debates end up angry and aren't fun. -_-

how u don't want me to get angry when u say Kiba can blitz Chouji from only 20ft which is 6.06m while he didn't speedblitz anyone and while he didn't tank anyone ... oh wait he did tanked a tree.

However ,Chouji's Spiked Human Bullet Tank does involves a technique that hardens his hair into extremely sharp spikes that cover his body, similar to Jiraiya's Needle Jizou technique, after which Chouji spins rapidly so I thinlk chouji can also pierce a tree or crash it actually.


Chouji can't use it because he gets attacked from the get-go, and Chouji still has a 2 in speed after using butterfly.

look , Chouji can go butterfly instantly it didn't take him a bit when he smashed Asuma with relative ease and just for the record The amount of Calories he stored made the wings grow to the size of the entire battlefield and which means +100 times increase in Chouji's power so tell me how Kiba gonna tank that.


you know what , you're pissed 'cause ur posts were disagreed with , and u can't counter them , so u need to stop actin' like you can if you want but aren't because we're not worth it.

stop repeating my words and I didn't say such thing ,you're just not gonna change ur mind no matter what.

Seriously dude just have a fun civil debate, when your arguments are beaten

u can't beat my posts by saying " your arguments are beaten " this is not gonna work and I haven't been uncivil with so u could tell me be civil and plus I can't have fun with someone there's no benefit of debating with him.

u need to prove that Kiba is faster than chouji so he can blitz him , u need to prove that Kiba can still alive after getting butterfly punches while neither Asuma nor Kidomaru couldn't.

(which they were considering you just now admitted you couldn't counter), admit Kiba wins. That's how it works. If your arguments as to why you think Chouji wins were all countered, then you don't think Chouji wins, you make no sense, I mean even you will do whatever it takes to not admit.

look I need an evidences , powerful evidences and not like the useless evidences u gave previously that even weak part 1 Naruto was able to beat.

1- give me at least a chapter and page number shows how Kiba is tanking someone from close distance by Gatsuga or fang and shows the damages happened to that person after been Gatsuga'd.

2- give me at least a considerable speed feat of Kiba.

we've seen chouji beating Asuma like a bug within 1 moment.
we've seen him using Human bullet tank and multiple size technique partially a lot of times and we've also seen the results.

"You proved all my points wrong about why Chouji wins and I can't counter them and you're right, but Chouji still wins."

all what u said about me is not gonna change the fact that ur arguments and Amano's arguments (who's actually u ) have been beaten by everybody here.

I told u from the beginning it's ur fault , u made the distance 20ft against chouji so it's ur fault. now this is my last post here so good luck with trying to wank Kiba.

Super Sanin 3
08-16-2011, 02:06 PM
uhh flame is no good...was so peaceful when it was just Amono and I debating. BTW sorry for the pics...I can just give Page/Chapter numbers for kiba's feats if you like

Phoenix Wright
08-16-2011, 04:15 PM
I did.



how u don't want me to get angry when u say Kiba can blitz Chouji from only 20ft which is 6.06m while he didn't speedblitz anyone and while he didn't tank anyone ... oh wait he did tanked a tree.Re-read the Naruto fight, as I already told you to do, yet again. If you do that you should notice how quickly Kiba decides to jump into the fray from an attack right off the bat. So yeah. Also note I didn't say "blitz"(did I?), I said Chouji was being attacked from the start.

However ,Chouji's Spiked Human Bullet Tank does involves a technique that hardens his hair into extremely sharp spikes that cover his body, similar to Jiraiya's Needle Jizou technique, after which Chouji spins rapidly so I thinlk chouji can also pierce a tree or crash it actually.
He probably could, but unfortunately for him Kiba's jutsu is more piercing technique than smashing into things.



look , Chouji can go butterfly instantly it didn't take him a bit when he smashed Asuma with relative ease and just for the record The amount of Calories he stored made the wings grow to the size of the entire battlefield and which means +100 times increase in Chouji's power so tell me how Kiba gonna tank that.
I might be able to blink "instantly" too but it won't stop anyone who's just that much faster than me to hit me within that time. Simple, Chouji makes himself a bigger target, but it won't happen since Chouji gets knocked down, he's not getting back up.



stop repeating my words and I didn't say such thing ,you're just not gonna change ur mind no matter what.
Then stop ignoring my words. If you prove me wrong I will, but you're not gonna do that obviously since you already admitted that you lost the debate. Which, color me shocked, you still refuse to admit defeat.


u can't beat my posts by saying " your arguments are beaten " this is not gonna work and I haven't been uncivil with so u could tell me be civil and plus I can't have fun with someone there's no benefit of debating with him.Then why are you even here? You realize there's only been like 4 people I've ever met ever on this forum that's EVER admit defeat and that was if not simply because I pushed them until they couldn't do anything but that?

Your arguments were beaten, you said they were, that meant that you lost the debate, seriously guys just to avoid admitting defeat don't say "My arguments were beaten so I can't possibly think Chouji wins...but he does despite me knowing he doesn't." Nice contradictions, all because of each member's gigantic pride, which makes me lol.

u need to prove that Kiba is faster than chouji so he can blitz him , u need to prove that Kiba can still alive after getting butterfly punches while neither Asuma nor Kidomaru couldn't.
Kiba-4.5, appears behind people shocking the crowd and doing stuff like that like moving so fast he slices air, Chouji, 1 for the first TWO whole databooks and then 2, absolutely no impressive speed feats and the very one feat you people can give was long long before he was ranked anything near a two. You're gonna have to prove Chouji is at least fast enough to hit Kiba otherwise there's no point in saying if Kiba could survive it, but for the record he stabbed himself a really deep wound, swam and walked for quite some time.


look I need an evidences , powerful evidences and not like the useless evidences u gave previously that even weak part 1 Naruto was able to beat.Weak? He has the Kyuubi. I like how people dismiss that Naruto as fodder just because he didn't know any decent jutsu back then or yada yada. Why do you think he beat Neji? DEFINITELY doesn't make Neji weak. The only reason Kiba lost was due to Naruto farting, even Kishi knew in a fight where Naruto wouldn't do something like that Kiba would have won.

And I'm gonna have to say I need some "evidences" as well, you haven't given any at all that say anything about how Chouji can possibly compare to Kiba, or rather get up or handle two people at once.

1- give me at least a chapter and page number shows how Kiba is tanking someone from close distance by Gatsuga or fang and shows the damages happened to that person after been Gatsuga'd.
He smashed into Rashomon, also he drilled Sakon/Ukon in half which is common knowledge. Now where are your feats that show
1. Where Chouji is anyway fast enough to even think about landing a hit on that gray thing coming at hi-- he's dead.
2- give me at least a considerable speed feat of Kiba.I've done this so many times and you simply, without reason, regarded them as crap because they were so legit. Speed feat from Chouji that wasn't completely debunked by the DB being right there and for anyone to access?

we've seen chouji beating Asuma like a bug within 1 moment.
we've seen him using Human bullet tank and multiple size technique partially a lot of times and we've also seen the results.
It doesn't really matter if Kiba is faster than Chouji can handle, Asuma isn't really related to Kiba but alright.

all what u said about me is not gonna change the fact that ur arguments and Amano's arguments (who's actually u ) have been beaten by everybody here.
LOL he's my dupe?

I told u from the beginning it's ur fault , u made the distance 20ft against chouji so it's ur fault. now this is my last post here so good luck with trying to wank Kiba.
Damn dude so much for being civil, well that's irrelevant, on the on-topic side, I already said the foot distance helps Kiba out more.

Basically leaving because you know you can't counter, alright concession accepted, was fun but a shame you ended up flaming like the rest. >_>

Shikamaru Nara
08-16-2011, 04:22 PM
I don't see why not, Butterfly Choji never really showed anything that impressive in speed.

Kiba was shown to be a top tier speedster amongst the rookies even early on in the series, and he was fast enough with Dual Wolf Fang to actually get Sakon and Ukon.

Plus databook has him at 4.5 in speed so that means Kishi intended for Kiba to be a fast character.

Kiba was pretty much duped by Naruto, or would've been, had he been able to see through the smoke bomb. Kiba wasn't really that fast.

Sakon and Ukon didn't show many speed feats, mainly because of the fact that most of Kiba Vs Sakon/Ukon was spent as a hide and seek match, and Sakon/Ukon were winning. Clearly they were stronger than him.

Kishi's intentions are far from actuality though, because most of the feats in the story can't back up his 4.5.

And trust me, even though I'm opposed to thinking databooks are correct, when put in the face of feats, I'm not going to argue with it, but Kishi's intentions aren't enough for me to simply believe that Kiba is as fast as Itachi, who, if I'm not mistaken also scored a 4.5 in speed, or lower.

Super Sanin 3
08-16-2011, 04:27 PM
Itachi, who, if I'm not mistaken also scored a 4.5 in speed, or lower.
Nah he's a 5, but i don't agree on the DB being correct
Besides Sakon and Ukon were 1 tier less than Kiba on speed and they didnt get blitz'd

Shikamaru Nara
08-16-2011, 04:32 PM
So Itachi is barely faster than Kiba? Nah, I'd say not.

Only thing that I could agree with in the speed part was the double wolf fang, but mainly because it's a freaking mass of massiveness, how do you avoid that? (although it's linear)

Phoenix Wright
08-16-2011, 04:41 PM
Seriously people need to learn DB ranks. It's just a tier, there's only 9 different ranks, Sasuke has a 4.5 too that doesn't make him Kiba's speed, it's just around the same speed, there's a huge gap from low-4.5 to high-4.5, or high 4.5 to low 5, geez.

Super Sanin 3
08-16-2011, 04:45 PM
Seriously people need to learn DB ranks. It's just a tier, there's only 9 different ranks, Sasuke has a 4.5 too that doesn't make him Kiba's speed, it's just around the same speed, there's a huge gap from low-4.5 to high-4.5, or high 4.5 to low 5, geez
But Kiba should have EASILY blitz'd Sakon/Ukon though, if that were the case

Shikamaru Nara
08-16-2011, 04:46 PM
Seriously people need to learn DB ranks. It's just a tier, there's only 9 different ranks, Sasuke has a 4.5 too that doesn't make him Kiba's speed, it's just around the same speed, there's a huge gap from low-4.5 to high-4.5, or high 4.5 to low 5, geez.

So Sasuke and Kiba are "around the same speed?"

I don't agree with that, personally. :\

Phoenix Wright
08-16-2011, 07:09 PM
But Kiba should have EASILY blitz'd Sakon/Ukon though, if that were the case
Kiba only had like 3.5 speed back then, it's not a shock to see Sakon/Ukon in the high tier 3s.
So Sasuke and Kiba are "around the same speed?"

I don't agree with that, personally. :\
there's a huge gap from low-4.5 to high-4.5, or high 4.5 to low 5, geez.

Super Sanin 3
08-16-2011, 07:13 PM
Kiba only had like 3.5 speed back then, it's not a shock to see Sakon/Ukon in the high tier 3s.
But he has a 4, we're using the second databook for both of them, aren't we?

Phoenix Wright
08-16-2011, 09:04 PM
Really he was a four back then, oh wow shows how much he improved in so little time. Just think.

Well, Sakon being you know, two-in-one helps him out a lot in that aspect.

Super Sanin 3
08-16-2011, 09:05 PM
Really he was a four back then, oh wow shows how much he improved in so little time. Just think.

Well, Sakon being you know, two-in-one helps him out a lot in that aspect.
But you just said tiers have a large range of speeds
there's a huge gap from low-4.5 to high-4.5, or high 4.5 to low 5

Kiba also had Akamaru with him

Phoenix Wright
08-16-2011, 09:37 PM
But you just said tiers have a large range of speeds


Kiba also had Akamaru with him
I know I did, it doesn't change anything. I wasn't talking about Akamaru I was talking about Kiba fighting with Sakon and Ukon and being that they're two-in-one they actually CAN counter his attacks. Besides, we all know Kiba is far from Sasuke level anyway unless you actually wanna argue they're the same speed due to the ranks being not-as-wide ranged which should just help Kiba out more.

Super Sanin 3
08-16-2011, 09:40 PM
I know I did, it doesn't change anything. I wasn't talking about Akamaru I was talking about Kiba fighting with Sakon and Ukon and being that they're two-in-one they actually CAN counter his attacks. Besides, we all know Kiba is far from Sasuke level anyway unless you actually wanna argue they're the same speed due to the ranks being not-as-wide ranged which should just help Kiba out more.
I just wanted to know if we were using DB stats or not, since a large amount of debating has been about their stats.

Phoenix Wright
08-16-2011, 09:48 PM
I was just mentioning them since people were saying Chouji was so fast, meanwhile he still had like a 2 after that single feat they could possibly give. Other than that feat which Kishi(yeah the guy who sort of wrote the character) had given a 2 in speed for, there's nothing else.

Then there was Kiba who at the same time had a 4(which I thought was 3.5 actually) and only improved since then.

Chuunin exams, 3.5 and in that little time he was already a 4.

Actually, my mistake, what I MEANT to say all this time.
Chouji had a ONE in speed AFTER the Butterfly Feat. He got the two after the third Databook, which is just sad, I was remembering it like it was "2,2,3" respectively but it was 1,1,2, forgot about that one.

Yeah after the one and only precious speed feat by Chouji, the guy who wrote the character, already ranked him as 1 in speed, meanwhile Kiba had a 3.5, 4.0 during those times, and now 4.5 along with Chouji's 2.

Super Sanin 3
08-16-2011, 09:56 PM
I was just mentioning them since people were saying Chouji was so fast, meanwhile he still had like a 2 after that single feat they could possibly give. Other than that feat which Kishi(yeah the guy who sort of wrote the character) had given a 2 in speed for, there's nothing else.

Then there was Kiba who at the same time had a 4(which I thought was 3.5 actually) and only improved since then.

Chuunin exams, 3.5 and in that little time he was already a 4.

Actually, my mistake, what I MEANT to say all this time.
Chouji had a ONE in speed AFTER the Butterfly Feat. He got the two after the third Databook, which is just sad, I was remembering it like it was "2,2,3" respectively but it was 1,1,2, forgot about that one.

Yeah after the one and only precious speed feat by Chouji, the guy who wrote the character, already ranked him as 1 in speed, meanwhile Kiba had a 3.5, 4.0 during those times, and now 4.5 along with Chouji's 2.
So we are going by DB stats? But how do you know the speed tier is the same in Butterfly mode and base? It could launch from 1 to anywhere around those lines. The thing is 1 punch and either Kiba or Akamaru's down, and i just realized that if one goes down, fang wolf fang wont be possible

Phoenix Wright
08-16-2011, 10:00 PM
You can color me stumped if Kishi sits their and says "Well in his base form he's ___ speed and in this mode he's ____ speed and for the databook I'll consider ____ and ____" he just writes the character's speed overall, obviously it wasn't intended for Chouji to be one of the fast characters.

The one time he does get a chance for a speed feat in current time Naruto he epically fails and forces Kakashi to Kamui the missile away that he was hardly outrunning at what was LOL speed.

Super Sanin 3
08-16-2011, 10:09 PM
But what if we can't use general speed? Let's say we have a tier 4 speed character against a 4.5, then tier 4 suddenly transforms and blitz'd the 4.5, it wouldn't be general than. Plus it use to be a 1 shot deal with the pills so he probably didnt put Butterfly mode into the equation. Don't forget he can transform into a giant too, which Kiba would need his 2-headed wolf to counter

Amano Yukiteru
08-17-2011, 10:32 PM
Mmm I would say Choji would be able to stop it using Mega Palm Thrust, but if fang passing fang is really piercing how could they stop it even with reactions? They'd have to catch him mid-air while spinning as they're being attacked with force against them. Kiba would be faster than Choji but also he won't make multiple turns at the last second so he wouldn't be able to defend himself.

However imagine yourself in Kiba's case when Choji turns giant, i don't think fang passing fang would cut it, neither damage nor for their safety. So without transforming into their twin-headed wolf they wouldn't be able to hurt him, and judging by his size they'd be running for their life if he decided to jump on them.

As for fang wolf fang vs giant bullet bombing, imagine going face first into that huge, powerful punch. Oh yeah it would hurt, badly too, but then again it's not a vital spot either.

Lol SuperChoji came out of nowhere. Wonder where everybody else is

Well it all depends on if they could actually hit or not, Mega Palm Thrust is a pretty simple move and is just a one-go smash that takes time to bring back after being finished, so if he misses then it'll take time to recover in order to attack again. Plus I doubt he could hit both Kiba and Akamaru with it at once, and chances are they'll be attacking at multiple directions so I doubt it would be an easy task.

The deal with Sakon and Ukon is that it's really hard to tell just what they used in order to block the attack. They didn't seem like the raw strength type to me so it's hard to say if that's how they repelled it, I doubt that's how but yeah it's really hard to tell.

Well even if he gets bigger it's still a human body, might take some more time and the damage might be low scale but something that could normally pierce Choji's skin could do the same even if he's giant. They won't oneshot a giant Choji but they can do enough damage to harm him. And if he were to try jumping on them and he misses, he's pretty much screwed because the time it would take to get back up, locate the two, and then effectively prepare an attack would be way too much.

Well if Fang Wolf Fang went towards regular Butterfly Bombing it's definitely gonna pierce through, a giant one makes it so that the attack is larger and that alone would give it power but it still probably wouldn't give enough resistance, the risk of it drilling through Choji's fist is still pretty high since it dented a Rashomon gate, and that was pre-skip after all.


all what u said about me is not gonna change the fact that ur arguments and Amano's arguments (who's actually u ) have been beaten by everybody here.


LOL at this fail.

For one, you haven't proven anything that shows that my argument was "beaten" by everybody else here. The fact that you're circle jerking with all the other people who actually CAN bring evidence while you just go "yeah yeah what they said" and continue to troll shows that you're just not contributing to the debate here. Does saying "zomg you're wrong shut up" and "lol I'ma ignore you since you're obviously wrong even though I have no way of proving how" contribute? No. It is an utter waste of time and is not necessary, at all. Crap like this is why this forum has degraded into the madness it has.

And lol at me being Phoenix's dupe. Do you have any proof of that or is that your opinion whenever two people agree on something? Suggesting stupid conjecture like that because you can't stand to lose is utterly pathetic and just doesn't belong here. I am someone's dupe but as for who that is, it is utterly irrelevant.

Now cut out the trolling and let the people who CAN debate in a civil manner do such, and stop causing trouble in the thread. The fact that you blame everybody who disagrees with you in spite of you messing with the flow of this thread really bothers me.

Kiba was pretty much duped by Naruto, or would've been, had he been able to see through the smoke bomb. Kiba wasn't really that fast.

Sakon and Ukon didn't show many speed feats, mainly because of the fact that most of Kiba Vs Sakon/Ukon was spent as a hide and seek match, and Sakon/Ukon were winning. Clearly they were stronger than him.

Kishi's intentions are far from actuality though, because most of the feats in the story can't back up his 4.5.

And trust me, even though I'm opposed to thinking databooks are correct, when put in the face of feats, I'm not going to argue with it, but Kishi's intentions aren't enough for me to simply believe that Kiba is as fast as Itachi, who, if I'm not mistaken also scored a 4.5 in speed, or lower.

Naruto only defeated Kiba because of combat genius and a lucky fart. It was clear from the start that Kiba casually outclassed Naruto in speed and power, Naruto's tricks to troll around Kiba were the sole reason he wasn't annihilated. If Naruto had went with his own power alone rather than using his head he would have been utterly annihilated fast.

Even then I'd say they were faster than Choji, considering Choji was on the same tier as Jirobo, slowest and overall least powerful of the Sound Four, while Sakon and Ukon were stated to be the most powerful so they had to have some speed supplementing them. After all, broken hax is useless if you're too slow to ever use it.

The thing is that you say his feats contradict it, but that's not true because he hasn't been given screen time to show these feats. We are all well aware that Kishi hasn't been the most generous with his side cast, so he uses the databook stats to give readers an idea of how strong certain characters are despite their lack of showing feats. Otherwise we could say stupid things like all the rookies very early in the series are stronger than Iruka due to feats even though it's pretty obvious that making brats who haven't reached Genin stronger than their Chunin-ranked teacher is pretty stupid. As far as I can tell, second databook stats seem to match up to what Kiba showed in the Sakon fight just fine to me, where third is supposed to show to what extent he improved since that time.

Itachi has a 5. And Phoenix already said this but it's not like all the characters are supposed to be the same level of speed, because of course Kiba and Neji shouldn't be near Sasuke's level of speed despite all having 4.5. It's supposed to give a general idea, but even then there are variations within said tier. If there's anything blatantly contradicting it, I'd prefer to have evidence given that shows Kiba is super slow since until we see Post-Skip Kiba getting blitzed by someone with a 2 in speed I'd say that he at least is worthy of a 4 in speed.

In any case, the semantics don't mean that much anyway since fact of the matter is that Choji still has a really, really low ranking in speed and as far as I could tell, Butterfly mode never proved to enhance that speed. Even if Kiba wasn't 4.5 worthy fact of the matter is his speed pre-skip was way more impressive than anything I've seen from Choji.

Super Sanin 3
08-18-2011, 09:23 AM
Well it all depends on if they could actually hit or not, Mega Palm Thrust is a pretty simple move and is just a one-go smash that takes time to bring back after being finished, so if he misses then it'll take time to recover in order to attack again. Plus I doubt he could hit both Kiba and Akamaru with it at once, and chances are they'll be attacking at multiple directions so I doubt it would be an easy task.

The deal with Sakon and Ukon is that it's really hard to tell just what they used in order to block the attack. They didn't seem like the raw strength type to me so it's hard to say if that's how they repelled it, I doubt that's how but yeah it's really hard to tell.

Well even if he gets bigger it's still a human body, might take some more time and the damage might be low scale but something that could normally pierce Choji's skin could do the same even if he's giant. They won't oneshot a giant Choji but they can do enough damage to harm him. And if he were to try jumping on them and he misses, he's pretty much screwed because the time it would take to get back up, locate the two, and then effectively prepare an attack would be way too much.

Well if Fang Wolf Fang went towards regular Butterfly Bombing it's definitely gonna pierce through, a giant one makes it so that the attack is larger and that alone would give it power but it still probably wouldn't give enough resistance, the risk of it drilling through Choji's fist is still pretty high since it dented a Rashomon gate, and that was pre-skip after all.
Without going giant i say yes Kiba would win, but i still think he can last abit in base since Naruto tanked the attack, plus i dont think fang tunneling fang would work vs a human bullet tank (maybe spiked?) even with the 2-against-1 advantage since he broke through the dome. Choji has alot of strength, and i remember Akamaru getting 1 shot by Kiba at the Chuunin exams, don't forget if he's out then no fang wolf fang for Round 2.

First take a look at Chapter 189 Page 18 and look at the size of the trees compared to Jirobo (approx.) then go a page back and look at his head in comparison, then try picturing how big fang tunneling fang would like in comparison, remember the closer he gets to Choji the more likely he will damage them, and they dont seem to have THAT great of a stamina. If either one of them were to get hit, there would be no chance for their ultimate jutsu (plus he probably can do AOE damage at that size)

About the hand thing, even if it were to go through, didn't Deidara survive with his whole arm cut off? (i think it was 2 after wasn't it?) But if it was like the heart i'd understand, or any vital organ. I'd say butterfly bullet bombing is easily a 1 hitter, Kiba turns into a giant wolf, so Choji uses a giant fist, to make it even (plus he's going face first into it)
Honestly if Kiba gets a powerup any time in this war i think he'd be able to beat Choji

Shikamaru Nara
08-18-2011, 10:33 AM
Well it all depends on if they could actually hit or not, Mega Palm Thrust is a pretty simple move and is just a one-go smash that takes time to bring back after being finished, so if he misses then it'll take time to recover in order to attack again. Plus I doubt he could hit both Kiba and Akamaru with it at once, and chances are they'll be attacking at multiple directions so I doubt it would be an easy task.

The deal with Sakon and Ukon is that it's really hard to tell just what they used in order to block the attack. They didn't seem like the raw strength type to me so it's hard to say if that's how they repelled it, I doubt that's how but yeah it's really hard to tell.

Well even if he gets bigger it's still a human body, might take some more time and the damage might be low scale but something that could normally pierce Choji's skin could do the same even if he's giant. They won't oneshot a giant Choji but they can do enough damage to harm him. And if he were to try jumping on them and he misses, he's pretty much screwed because the time it would take to get back up, locate the two, and then effectively prepare an attack would be way too much.

Well if Fang Wolf Fang went towards regular Butterfly Bombing it's definitely gonna pierce through, a giant one makes it so that the attack is larger and that alone would give it power but it still probably wouldn't give enough resistance, the risk of it drilling through Choji's fist is still pretty high since it dented a Rashomon gate, and that was pre-skip after all.



LOL at this fail.

For one, you haven't proven anything that shows that my argument was "beaten" by everybody else here. The fact that you're circle jerking with all the other people who actually CAN bring evidence while you just go "yeah yeah what they said" and continue to troll shows that you're just not contributing to the debate here. Does saying "zomg you're wrong shut up" and "lol I'ma ignore you since you're obviously wrong even though I have no way of proving how" contribute? No. It is an utter waste of time and is not necessary, at all. Crap like this is why this forum has degraded into the madness it has.

And lol at me being Phoenix's dupe. Do you have any proof of that or is that your opinion whenever two people agree on something? Suggesting stupid conjecture like that because you can't stand to lose is utterly pathetic and just doesn't belong here. I am someone's dupe but as for who that is, it is utterly irrelevant.

Now cut out the trolling and let the people who CAN debate in a civil manner do such, and stop causing trouble in the thread. The fact that you blame everybody who disagrees with you in spite of you messing with the flow of this thread really bothers me.



Naruto only defeated Kiba because of combat genius and a lucky fart. It was clear from the start that Kiba casually outclassed Naruto in speed and power, Naruto's tricks to troll around Kiba were the sole reason he wasn't annihilated. If Naruto had went with his own power alone rather than using his head he would have been utterly annihilated fast.

Even then I'd say they were faster than Choji, considering Choji was on the same tier as Jirobo, slowest and overall least powerful of the Sound Four, while Sakon and Ukon were stated to be the most powerful so they had to have some speed supplementing them. After all, broken hax is useless if you're too slow to ever use it.

The thing is that you say his feats contradict it, but that's not true because he hasn't been given screen time to show these feats. We are all well aware that Kishi hasn't been the most generous with his side cast, so he uses the databook stats to give readers an idea of how strong certain characters are despite their lack of showing feats. Otherwise we could say stupid things like all the rookies very early in the series are stronger than Iruka due to feats even though it's pretty obvious that making brats who haven't reached Genin stronger than their Chunin-ranked teacher is pretty stupid. As far as I can tell, second databook stats seem to match up to what Kiba showed in the Sakon fight just fine to me, where third is supposed to show to what extent he improved since that time.

Itachi has a 5. And Phoenix already said this but it's not like all the characters are supposed to be the same level of speed, because of course Kiba and Neji shouldn't be near Sasuke's level of speed despite all having 4.5. It's supposed to give a general idea, but even then there are variations within said tier. If there's anything blatantly contradicting it, I'd prefer to have evidence given that shows Kiba is super slow since until we see Post-Skip Kiba getting blitzed by someone with a 2 in speed I'd say that he at least is worthy of a 4 in speed.

In any case, the semantics don't mean that much anyway since fact of the matter is that Choji still has a really, really low ranking in speed and as far as I could tell, Butterfly mode never proved to enhance that speed. Even if Kiba wasn't 4.5 worthy fact of the matter is his speed pre-skip was way more impressive than anything I've seen from Choji.
ah, long post. :\

Really, though? It was still his power, and the fact that Kiba had brought pills that obviously enhance his ability to win were imminent. Naruto didn't have anything with him. If he really wanted, he could've brought Kakashi to help him win, since you can bring whatever you want. Kiba brought himself basically. How does one fight two people at once while he's enshrouded with smoke and unable to see where the attacks are coming from? Maybe he got lucky, but then again, Naruto would've easily been able to beat him had it been one on one and he brought weapons as well, no?

So what? If we haven't seen it, what feats are there to see? None. Lack of screen time downplays the character's abilities, and that's the way it's meant to be. If Kiba was meant to be a fast character, but hasn't done anything, what reason is there to believe that Kiba's a fast character? None, because he hasn't shown any feats saying so. For example, I'm going to tell you that I'm stronger than you because I was able to bench 3000. Obviously you wouldn't believe that and you would question me. Why? Not because it's impossible, even though it very well may be. Because you hadn't seen me do it, so you've been given no reason to believe that I can do it. That doesn't mean I can't do it, but I haven't proven it to you or showed you that I am able to do it. The same law applies with speed in a manga. Hopefully now that I put it in different terms, you'll understand better.


Yet we've seen barely anything, other than him losing to Sakon and Ukon.

Super Sanin 3
08-18-2011, 10:37 AM
I'd still say Kiba's equipment should be allowed, i mean what's Ten-Ten without her weapons? :| I mean the fact that he uses them often should give him enough reason to have it

Oh yeah that brings up a good point: Choji farts while Kiba attacks him stunning him for that instant:twisted::cool:

Amano Yukiteru
08-18-2011, 11:12 AM
Without going giant i say yes Kiba would win, but i still think he can last abit in base since Naruto tanked the attack, plus i dont think fang tunneling fang would work vs a human bullet tank (maybe spiked?) even with the 2-against-1 advantage since he broke through the dome. Choji has alot of strength, and i remember Akamaru getting 1 shot by Kiba at the Chuunin exams, don't forget if he's out then no fang wolf fang for Round 2.

First take a look at Chapter 189 Page 18 and look at the size of the trees compared to Jirobo (approx.) then go a page back and look at his head in comparison, then try picturing how big fang tunneling fang would like in comparison, remember the closer he gets to Choji the more likely he will damage them, and they dont seem to have THAT great of a stamina. If either one of them were to get hit, there would be no chance for their ultimate jutsu (plus he probably can do AOE damage at that size)

About the hand thing, even if it were to go through, didn't Deidara survive with his whole arm cut off? (i think it was 2 after wasn't it?) But if it was like the heart i'd understand, or any vital organ. I'd say butterfly bullet bombing is easily a 1 hitter, Kiba turns into a giant wolf, so Choji uses a giant fist, to make it even (plus he's going face first into it)
Honestly if Kiba gets a powerup any time in this war i think he'd be able to beat Choji

That was the very first fight Kiba ever showed up in though, obviously we know that Kiba improved way more since then. Not to mention that just like Phoenix said, since they knew each other from childhood, Kiba of course wasn't going to fight to kill, especially when he thought of Naruto as a pathetic loser. The one fight he has shown being serious in, he only lost because Sakon and Ukon had such broken hax, in all honesty none of the Retrieval Squad, barring maybe Naruto with KN1, could have won either in my opinion. Also, keep in mind that Akamaru has grown, obviously physically but that of course implies that Akamaru is stronger as well. A small dog being able to do as much damage as Pre-Skip Kiba could tells me that current Akamaru should be able to do more so than that.

Well the fact that they'd be so small in comparison might just make it even harder for Choji since if he attacks once and misses, it's going to take a long time to recover, locate them, and attack again. And if he misses on his first go, it's doubtful he'll get them on other tries. As for stamina, Kiba was never really one to show amazing stamina but he doesn't really need it, chances are Choji won't start the battle giant, and if he doesn't that's really bad news because he won't get a chance to attack.

Well Deidara is leagues above Choji though, the only thing Choji is superior to Deidara in is strength and that's something we all figured out already anyway. Plus Choji relies on his fists for attack, if he loses an arm not only does he receive the damage, but his attack options are lowered.

And in the end Fang Wolf Fang is going to strike wherever the piss lands so unless Choji is fast enough to aim a Butterfly Bullet Bomb into a head-on Wolf Fang he's going to have problems.

ah, long post. :\

Really, though? It was still his power, and the fact that Kiba had brought pills that obviously enhance his ability to win were imminent. Naruto didn't have anything with him. If he really wanted, he could've brought Kakashi to help him win, since you can bring whatever you want. Kiba brought himself basically. How does one fight two people at once while he's enshrouded with smoke and unable to see where the attacks are coming from? Maybe he got lucky, but then again, Naruto would've easily been able to beat him had it been one on one and he brought weapons as well, no?

So what? If we haven't seen it, what feats are there to see? None. Lack of screen time downplays the character's abilities, and that's the way it's meant to be. If Kiba was meant to be a fast character, but hasn't done anything, what reason is there to believe that Kiba's a fast character? None, because he hasn't shown any feats saying so. For example, I'm going to tell you that I'm stronger than you because I was able to bench 3000. Obviously you wouldn't believe that and you would question me. Why? Not because it's impossible, even though it very well may be. Because you hadn't seen me do it, so you've been given no reason to believe that I can do it. That doesn't mean I can't do it, but I haven't proven it to you or showed you that I am able to do it. The same law applies with speed in a manga. Hopefully now that I put it in different terms, you'll understand better.


Yet we've seen barely anything, other than him losing to Sakon and Ukon.

His "power" was not even on Kiba's level, it was very obvious from the start that Kiba was Naruto's superior, Kiba was blitzing Naruto, he was the only one to really get good hits on him from the start, and even WITH Naruto's combat genius, the only reason Naruto won was because he happened to fart in Kiba's face. Do you think that a fart alone legitimately puts a character above another? As for the pills, they're standard equipment so I don't see how that changes anything.

That's the thing I don't like about the BG, this annoying insistence on feats, feats, feats, when there's obviously a need for logic in play here. That's why stupid crap like "Lol Neji>Hanzo" before the war happened even though Hanzo soloing the Sannin on his own was much more impressive than any feats that Neji showed. Even after he showed his feats they weren't anything near the build-up his character had been given. For one, I STILL have yet to see any impressive speed feats from Choji. Secondly, the difference between me making a blatantly outrageous claim like FTL Raikage and this is that this is supported by the very author himself. No matter how much you insist on feats, there is no way that you can just downplay what the author ranks his very own characters as without legitimate proof against it. Now stuff like light speed Haku I could understand, but Kiba being 2.5 above Choji in speed is illogical how?

And we've seen what from Choji? Barely defeating the weakest Sound Four member pre-skip, and defeating vastly weakened versions of other characters, not only with ally support but with some of said opponents even HELPING mid battle post-skip? People seem to get this idea that Choji solo'd a lotta those people in the war, which he did not. Not to mention that, say, Kakuzu didn't show anything near what he showed when he was alive, or he could have certainly killed off Team 10. It's kinda sad when even Pre-Skip Kiba feats are up for debate here, and logically Kiba only improved since then, unless we want to believe that databooks are crap in spite of Kishi writing them and ignore the evidence in front of us.

Super Sanin 3
08-18-2011, 11:30 AM
That was the very first fight Kiba ever showed up in though, obviously we know that Kiba improved way more since then. Not to mention that just like Phoenix said, since they knew each other from childhood, Kiba of course wasn't going to fight to kill, especially when he thought of Naruto as a pathetic loser. The one fight he has shown being serious in, he only lost because Sakon and Ukon had such broken hax, in all honesty none of the Retrieval Squad, barring maybe Naruto with KN1, could have won either in my opinion. Also, keep in mind that Akamaru has grown, obviously physically but that of course implies that Akamaru is stronger as well. A small dog being able to do as much damage as Pre-Skip Kiba could tells me that current Akamaru should be able to do more so than that.

Well the fact that they'd be so small in comparison might just make it even harder for Choji since if he attacks once and misses, it's going to take a long time to recover, locate them, and attack again. And if he misses on his first go, it's doubtful he'll get them on other tries. As for stamina, Kiba was never really one to show amazing stamina but he doesn't really need it, chances are Choji won't start the battle giant, and if he doesn't that's really bad news because he won't get a chance to attack.

Well Deidara is leagues above Choji though, the only thing Choji is superior to Deidara in is strength and that's something we all figured out already anyway. Plus Choji relies on his fists for attack, if he loses an arm not only does he receive the damage, but his attack options are lowered.

And in the end Fang Wolf Fang is going to strike wherever the piss lands so unless Choji is fast enough to aim a Butterfly Bullet Bomb into a head-on Wolf Fang he's going to have problems.
Yeah Choji would probably be blitz'd by Kiba's fang tunneling fang spam at the start, then he will probably only expand parts of his body which would still not be enough but he would be able to block more damage with them. Don't forget that Choji's stamina also probably developed in the timeskip (if we're still using DB it goes up by 1.0)

Then when he realizes he can't hit Kiba he will finally turn giant, giving him more AOE attacks, for example, Tsunade randomly changing the environment with her immensly concentrated punches (he doesnt only need belly flops) like take it this way, he jumps and a shockwave around his feet knocks Kiba backwards (since they have no long range attacks)

But it's their body not their skills isn't it? Itachi is very skilled but it's not like he can survive with his limbs cut off

Amano Yukiteru
08-18-2011, 11:40 AM
Yeah Choji would probably be blitz'd by Kiba's fang tunneling fang spam at the start, then he will probably only expand parts of his body which would still not be enough but he would be able to block more damage with them. Don't forget that Choji's stamina also probably developed in the timeskip (if we're still using DB it goes up by 1.0)

Then when he realizes he can't hit Kiba he will finally turn giant, giving him more AOE attacks, for example, Tsunade randomly changing the environment with her immensly concentrated punches (he doesnt only need belly flops) like take it this way, he jumps and a shockwave around his feet knocks Kiba backwards (since they have no long range attacks)

But it's their body not their skills isn't it? Itachi is very skilled but it's not like he can survive with his limbs cut off

Well the thing is that with Kiba's style of attack I doubt that Choji would get a chance to turn giant, he would have to keep on the defensive, and if he tried to jump and do what he did on Jirobo then that leaves him vulnerable to Fang Passing Fang if he doesn't transform fast enough. Even then I doubt he'd get that chance.

Deidara is experienced enough with combat and is used to severe beatings after all. The fact he is an upper tier shows he has to have some good resistance to pain. Plus with someone of his level he would need the skill to survive if such an instance ever did occur. Not every upper tier could replicate that feat, but in that circumstance he had to or he would have died. Though overall he didn't seem like a sheer durability beast to me.

Super Sanin 3
08-18-2011, 11:47 AM
Well the thing is that with Kiba's style of attack I doubt that Choji would get a chance to turn giant, he would have to keep on the defensive, and if he tried to jump and do what he did on Jirobo then that leaves him vulnerable to Fang Passing Fang if he doesn't transform fast enough. Even then I doubt he'd get that chance.

Deidara is experienced enough with combat and is used to severe beatings after all. The fact he is an upper tier shows he has to have some good resistance to pain. Plus with someone of his level he would need the skill to survive if such an instance ever did occur. Not every upper tier could replicate that feat, but in that circumstance he had to or he would have died. Though overall he didn't seem like a sheer durability beast to me.
Well he does transform quickly, he'd also need to be cautious or he'll mess up and get hit by one of Choji's expansion jutsus(if he does he'll be able to turn giant for sure as kiba will go looking at Akamaru's condition, or maybe take a blow for him)

But surely a huge 1 hit KO punch to the head would hurt just as badly as a pierced hand?

Amano Yukiteru
08-18-2011, 12:10 PM
Well he does transform quickly, he'd also need to be cautious or he'll mess up and get hit by one of Choji's expansion jutsus(if he does he'll be able to turn giant for sure as kiba will go looking at Akamaru's condition, or maybe take a blow for him)

But surely a huge 1 hit KO punch to the head would hurt just as badly as a pierced hand?

To an extent, though not enough that if Kiba intending to kill were to go on the attack, he would be able to go giant in time. The distance being as short as it is would make it pretty hard for Choji to get a good chance of transformation and if he fails the first time it's gonna be hard to keep it going since Kiba won't let him get many opportunities.

Well it depends really, low durability means that a powerful enough punch oneshots the opponent, but if they're durable enough then they could tank such a punch, whereas a piercing wound may be more effective and could even be more traumatizing.

Super Sanin 3
08-18-2011, 12:27 PM
To an extent, though not enough that if Kiba intending to kill were to go on the attack, he would be able to go giant in time. The distance being as short as it is would make it pretty hard for Choji to get a good chance of transformation and if he fails the first time it's gonna be hard to keep it going since Kiba won't let him get many opportunities.

Well it depends really, low durability means that a powerful enough punch oneshots the opponent, but if they're durable enough then they could tank such a punch, whereas a piercing wound may be more effective and could even be more traumatizing.
I think i remember them giving a small prep time before them using wolf tunneling fang one after the other? Hard to tell but Choji's attacks, even the partial expansions, have a wide area to hit either Kiba or Akamaru. I can see him using "Multi-Size technique" to repel them back enough. But he could use ButterFly Mode without turning giant, which has good feats for being instant, the wings probably help him move as well (possibly glide?) he gets tsunade punches in this form so that should give him time to turn giant (maybe this also gives him the height advantage for when he turns giant)

The bullet bombing is loaded with concentrated chakra, its strength is enormous, not like an average punch, the wolf got injured when he rammed into the Rashomon so ramming into something that has force pushing back on it would probably be even worse

Amano Yukiteru
08-18-2011, 12:58 PM
I think i remember them giving a small prep time before them using wolf tunneling fang one after the other? Hard to tell but Choji's attacks, even the partial expansions, have a wide area to hit either Kiba or Akamaru. I can see him using "Multi-Size technique" to repel them back enough. But he could use ButterFly Mode without turning giant, which has good feats for being instant, the wings probably help him move as well (possibly glide?) he gets tsunade punches in this form so that should give him time to turn giant (maybe this also gives him the height advantage for when he turns giant)

The bullet bombing is loaded with concentrated chakra, its strength is enormous, not like an average punch, the wolf got injured when he rammed into the Rashomon so ramming into something that has force pushing back on it would probably be even worse

Well there is, but as far as I can see it would take less time for them to start again than for Choji to recover from such a powerful attack. This is just conjecture here but I was just thinking that the way Fang Wolf Fang slices through the air around it might even have an effect on Butterfly Bombing, could weaken it by slicing through the chakra and could just induce pain on Choji and reduce the force he puts into his punch overall. As for the gliding, the wings are just the chakra being manifested so I don't think he could use them to fly or glide, could be proven wrong but we haven't seen it yet so for now I wouldn't think it works. Didn't seem like they helped much with his mobility either, maybe a little bit but not by enough for it to matter against a really fast opponent.

Reading through the manga again, Fang Wolf Fang plowed through the ground without even touching it, that's how potent it is. Looking at the Rashomon though Fang Wolf Fang dented it pretty well, in all honesty I don't know if even Choji's strength would be that effective. If he were to go giant and jump on it that's one thing but a Butterfly Bombing I have trouble thinking would do as much damage to the giant Rashomon that Fang Wolf Fang did. Not to mention that this was pre-skip after all, repetitive as this sounds Kiba certainly had to have gotten stronger since then.

Super Sanin 3
08-18-2011, 01:12 PM
Well there is, but as far as I can see it would take less time for them to start again than for Choji to recover from such a powerful attack. This is just conjecture here but I was just thinking that the way Fang Wolf Fang slices through the air around it might even have an effect on Butterfly Bombing, could weaken it by slicing through the chakra and could just induce pain on Choji and reduce the force he puts into his punch overall. As for the gliding, the wings are just the chakra being manifested so I don't think he could use them to fly or glide, could be proven wrong but we haven't seen it yet so for now I wouldn't think it works. Didn't seem like they helped much with his mobility either, maybe a little bit but not by enough for it to matter against a really fast opponent.

Reading through the manga again, Fang Wolf Fang plowed through the ground without even touching it, that's how potent it is. Looking at the Rashomon though Fang Wolf Fang dented it pretty well, in all honesty I don't know if even Choji's strength would be that effective. If he were to go giant and jump on it that's one thing but a Butterfly Bombing I have trouble thinking would do as much damage to the giant Rashomon that Fang Wolf Fang did. Not to mention that this was pre-skip after all, repetitive as this sounds Kiba certainly had to have gotten stronger since then.
Still it literally takes like a hand seal for him to grow giant, and i'm abit iffy on the attack weakening Choji's, can normal wind do that to chakra? While looking up the feats again i picked up a feat, he blocked jirobo's attack from behind without even looking at it. He was also at around 0 chakra before going buttefly mode, so he could probably do the same now.

But also Choji's grown even bigger since the time-skip, so i assume his body would grow at the same proportion too. Plus his strength was so powerful that he blocks the attack from a lvl2 jirobo, who was able to pick up giant choji

Amano Yukiteru
08-18-2011, 01:30 PM
Still it literally takes like a hand seal for him to grow giant, and i'm abit iffy on the attack weakening Choji's, can normal wind do that to chakra? While looking up the feats again i picked up a feat, he blocked jirobo's attack from behind without even looking at it. He was also at around 0 chakra before going buttefly mode, so he could probably do the same now.

But also Choji's grown even bigger since the time-skip, so i assume his body would grow at the same proportion too. Plus his strength was so powerful that he blocks the attack from a lvl2 jirobo, who was able to pick up giant choji

Even then, at the very short distance if Choji doesn't go giant right away, even with one handseal he would have trouble dealing with two Gatsugas scrambling around him. And considering just the force of Garouga was able to plow through the ground even though it was midair, I'd say that it could definitely interfere with Choji's punch, and if it actually hit the punch full on I wouldn't doubt that it would win.

Well that's the thing, Choji's strength was always the thing that was impressive about him. His sheer power is enough to oneshot the majority of the people in his age group. Problem is that even though he's overall stronger than Kiba, Kiba's ace in the hole could match Choji's destructive power and the speed difference is pretty vast.

Super Sanin 3
08-18-2011, 01:41 PM
Even then, at the very short distance if Choji doesn't go giant right away, even with one handseal he would have trouble dealing with two Gatsugas scrambling around him. And considering just the force of Garouga was able to plow through the ground even though it was midair, I'd say that it could definitely interfere with Choji's punch, and if it actually hit the punch full on I wouldn't doubt that it would win.

Well that's the thing, Choji's strength was always the thing that was impressive about him. His sheer power is enough to oneshot the majority of the people in his age group. Problem is that even though he's overall stronger than Kiba, Kiba's ace in the hole could match Choji's destructive power and the speed difference is pretty vast.
But would he really blitz before he can do anything? Choji has pretty good stamina so all he has to do is find the time for a single hand seal (even when recovering from the first attack) or he can go butterfly mode with it's excellent activation speeds and use AOE attacks with his new strength (although imo when choji blocked the hit from behind i think it applied new movement/reaction feats)

Amano Yukiteru
08-18-2011, 01:59 PM
But would he really blitz before he can do anything? Choji has pretty good stamina so all he has to do is find the time for a single hand seal (even when recovering from the first attack) or he can go butterfly mode with it's excellent activation speeds and use AOE attacks with his new strength (although imo when choji blocked the hit from behind i think it applied new movement/reaction feats)

Well the Four Legs Technique is known for allowing the user to attack rapidly without leaving the enemy time to counter, and considering Kiba and Akamaru are both attacking in conjunction that would only make it even harder for Choji. Plus if he's being attacked it's doubtful he would make a hand seal to transform in the middle, he would be defending himself since that's the natural course of action to take, and from there he would be struggling to get a good attack ready.

Well the only real AoE attacks Choji has are the ones when he goes super giant, to an extent they are otherwise but as a whole not that much. Even then if he misses in that state he'd have a hard time trying to follow up with successful attacks.

Super Sanin 3
08-18-2011, 02:09 PM
Well the Four Legs Technique is known for allowing the user to attack rapidly without leaving the enemy time to counter, and considering Kiba and Akamaru are both attacking in conjunction that would only make it even harder for Choji. Plus if he's being attacked it's doubtful he would make a hand seal to transform in the middle, he would be defending himself since that's the natural course of action to take, and from there he would be struggling to get a good attack ready.

Well the only real AoE attacks Choji has are the ones when he goes super giant, to an extent they are otherwise but as a whole not that much. Even then if he misses in that state he'd have a hard time trying to follow up with successful attacks.
Well, if it was a jutsu to save his life he would probably that that approach instead of the normal "guard" position, either that or butterfly mode, which takes no seals

If he WAS in butterfly mode, i can see him easily shaking the battleground with incredible strength (look what Tsunade does) and imo i can't imagine Kiba catching a hit behind him like that without looking (not including the strength of the hit just the movement of it)

Amano Yukiteru
08-18-2011, 02:52 PM
Well, if it was a jutsu to save his life he would probably that that approach instead of the normal "guard" position, either that or butterfly mode, which takes no seals

If he WAS in butterfly mode, i can see him easily shaking the battleground with incredible strength (look what Tsunade does) and imo i can't imagine Kiba catching a hit behind him like that without looking (not including the strength of the hit just the movement of it)

Perhaps butterfly, but I wouldn't imagine him going giant in that situation.

Well his hits would be pretty powerful but it all depends on whether or not he could actually get the hit in.

Well Jirobo was pretty slow in attacking speed anyway so it wasn't that impressive of a reaction feat, especially since Choji knew he was right there anyway. Plus it's not really Kiba's style to block like that, his speed was always the more agile, blitzing around the opponent type of combat speed.

Super Sanin 3
08-18-2011, 02:55 PM
Perhaps butterfly, but I wouldn't imagine him going giant in that situation.

Well his hits would be pretty powerful but it all depends on whether or not he could actually get the hit in.

Well Jirobo was pretty slow in attacking speed anyway so it wasn't that impressive of a reaction feat, especially since Choji knew he was right there anyway. Plus it's not really Kiba's style to block like that, his speed was always the more agile, blitzing around the opponent type of combat speed.
Yaw, but regular Choji wouldnt have blocked like that. His fighting style seemed more secure in that form.

Amano Yukiteru
08-18-2011, 03:04 PM
That could probably be attributed to the confidence he had in his strength after consuming the red pill, thus he could afford to block like that where if he had in Base his hand would have been pulverized.

Super Sanin 3
08-18-2011, 03:09 PM
Imo if he hit the ground once i'm sure he could get enough time to make a hand seal

Amano Yukiteru
08-18-2011, 03:51 PM
Imo if he hit the ground once i'm sure he could get enough time to make a hand seal

Well he would probably need to be powered up in order for a ground smash to be enough of a diversion anyway.

Super Sanin 3
08-18-2011, 03:53 PM
yeah i mean with butterfly mode (not fully powered just a punch)

Amano Yukiteru
08-18-2011, 03:55 PM
yeah i mean with butterfly mode (not fully powered just a punch)

Depends though, if he does it right away then yeah I guess but if if Kiba and Akamaru are already using Fang Passing Fang and heading towards him it won't do any good.

Super Sanin 3
08-18-2011, 03:59 PM
Depends though, if he does it right away then yeah I guess but if if Kiba and Akamaru are already using Fang Passing Fang and heading towards him it won't do any good.
I think Butterfly Choji would be able to block the attack with pure strength anyways, we don't really know if it gives him speed or not, could be either or

Amano Yukiteru
08-18-2011, 04:06 PM
Well even if he could, chances are not only the speed would be difficult, but the fact that there are two could cause some problems as well. As shown with Pain, having multiple opponents makes countering a lot more complicated than it seems.

Super Sanin 3
08-18-2011, 04:12 PM
Well even if he could, chances are not only the speed would be difficult, but the fact that there are two could cause some problems as well. As shown with Pain, having multiple opponents makes countering a lot more complicated than it seems.
Well the thing with Pain is that they have shared link and 6 bodies, which make it abit different. But can Kiba honestly come out of this without getting hit? I know he's fast but not what you would call the "untouchable" tier, especially with such attacks
(i think everybody else ditched this thread)

Amano Yukiteru
08-18-2011, 04:29 PM
Well the thing with Pain is that they have shared link and 6 bodies, which make it abit different. But can Kiba honestly come out of this without getting hit? I know he's fast but not what you would call the "untouchable" tier, especially with such attacks
(i think everybody else ditched this thread)

True but the main reason that Pain was so troublesome was because not only does he have a crapload of abilities, but it's just plain hard to maneuver against multiple people at one time in a fight. This is why even Jiraiya, who is top tier, struggled against only half of the paths of Pain. Sheer numbers alone won't win, but they can certainly help, especially when each of the fighters has good skill.

Well Kiba isn't necessarily a top tier in Naruto speed but for his age group he's definitely among the faster ones. As far as I can tell, a character such as, say, Lee should easily be able to outspeed Choji. Considering that Kishi has Kiba around the same tier as Lee then I'd say he could do the same. Kiba's not necessarily as fast as Lee, who showed to be a super speedster since very early on, but he's still fast in his own right.

Super Sanin 3
08-18-2011, 04:35 PM
True but the main reason that Pain was so troublesome was because not only does he have a crapload of abilities, but it's just plain hard to maneuver against multiple people at one time in a fight. This is why even Jiraiya, who is top tier, struggled against only half of the paths of Pain. Sheer numbers alone won't win, but they can certainly help, especially when each of the fighters has good skill.

Well Kiba isn't necessarily a top tier in Naruto speed but for his age group he's definitely among the faster ones. As far as I can tell, a character such as, say, Lee should easily be able to outspeed Choji. Considering that Kishi has Kiba around the same tier as Lee then I'd say he could do the same. Kiba's not necessarily as fast as Lee, who showed to be a super speedster since very early on, but he's still fast in his own right
The fight could go either way depending, Kiba is fast don't get me wrong, but i dont see him as fast enough to entirely blitz somebody to the point of not being able to make a handseal, then there's the way Sakon stopped Kiba's attack. There's alot of unknown variables in this match

Amano Yukiteru
08-18-2011, 04:40 PM
The fight could go either way depending, Kiba is fast don't get me wrong, but i dont see him as fast enough to entirely blitz somebody to the point of not being able to make a handseal, then there's the way Sakon stopped Kiba's attack. There's alot of unknown variables in this match

Well the starting distance is a key factor in that, if distance were farther Choji has a much better chance but it's really cutting it close here.

In any case Kiba might get feats in the war since third databook said he had a new technique but we have yet to see what it does. I'm hoping this happens at least.

Super Sanin 3
08-18-2011, 04:43 PM
Well the starting distance is a key factor in that, if distance were farther Choji has a much better chance but it's really cutting it close here.

In any case Kiba might get feats in the war since third databook said he had a new technique but we have yet to see what it does. I'm hoping this happens at least.
I think it would be more than a 1 or 2 attack fight, choji has endured quite alot

Well if it says it in the databook i guess we can just wait, he'll probably have an epic powerup that makes him up to date

Shikamaru Nara
08-19-2011, 06:51 AM
His "power" was not even on Kiba's level, it was very obvious from the start that Kiba was Naruto's superior, Kiba was blitzing Naruto, he was the only one to really get good hits on him from the start, and even WITH Naruto's combat genius, the only reason Naruto won was because he happened to fart in Kiba's face. Do you think that a fart alone legitimately puts a character above another? As for the pills, they're standard equipment so I don't see how that changes anything.

That's the thing I don't like about the BG, this annoying insistence on feats, feats, feats, when there's obviously a need for logic in play here. That's why stupid crap like "Lol Neji>Hanzo" before the war happened even though Hanzo soloing the Sannin on his own was much more impressive than any feats that Neji showed. Even after he showed his feats they weren't anything near the build-up his character had been given. For one, I STILL have yet to see any impressive speed feats from Choji. Secondly, the difference between me making a blatantly outrageous claim like FTL Raikage and this is that this is supported by the very author himself. No matter how much you insist on feats, there is no way that you can just downplay what the author ranks his very own characters as without legitimate proof against it. Now stuff like light speed Haku I could understand, but Kiba being 2.5 above Choji in speed is illogical how?

And we've seen what from Choji? Barely defeating the weakest Sound Four member pre-skip, and defeating vastly weakened versions of other characters, not only with ally support but with some of said opponents even HELPING mid battle post-skip? People seem to get this idea that Choji solo'd a lotta those people in the war, which he did not. Not to mention that, say, Kakuzu didn't show anything near what he showed when he was alive, or he could have certainly killed off Team 10. It's kinda sad when even Pre-Skip Kiba feats are up for debate here, and logically Kiba only improved since then, unless we want to believe that databooks are crap in spite of Kishi writing them and ignore the evidence in front of us.

HE HAD IMPAIRED VISION!

How on earth do you hit something or avoid something that you can't see up until about two seconds before the person or thing hits you? Put ANY character in that situation and I will guarantee you that they would not be able to have avoided the attack. Picture it this way, you were playing Call of Duty, and you got flashed. You can't see, and your hearing is being buzzed out by that annoying beeping noise. You do one of two things: you spray random bullets, or you stand still and wait for the flash to subside, even though you know you're going to die. But you can't seen, and the other person can see exactly where you are. Put under those circumstances, who do you think would win any sort of fight? A gun fight, or whatever. When your senses are taken out, there's no possible way for you to win something, unless the other person is handicapped the same way you are. Then it comes down to terms of strength. Put simply, had Naruto been able to see, you would not have been able to predict what happened, because he would've had a chance to actually fight instead of Kiba running around, blitzing him like a little ;););););) while Naruto was inside of his smoke so that he clearly couldn't see anything. I just see it that Naruto would've been able to win, had Kiba not had bombs. You're stating the obvious. Of course Kiba blitzed, because the more Naruto moved, the easier he was able to see where he was, and Naruto couldn't do jackshit about it mainly because he was already unable to see and Kiba had a full view of whatever was going on within the smoke. You really think Naruto couldn't have blitzed Kiba if Kiba couldn't see in the smoke? Or do you think that Naruto was really that slow, that he couldn't blitz a basically stagnant character?

How isn't it? Kishi clearly can't measure speed on a scale of .5-5, or whatever he does if he doesn't even know how to evenly balance the character's speeds. Sure, whatever, Kishi intends for them to be around the same speed, but clearly he doesn't intend for them to be that far apart in speed based on the numbers. If he really intended Kiba and Itachi to be around the same speed, he would've proven that Kiba is faster. You know what I don't like about debating? People use things when it's convenient for them. For example, I have heard countless rants from TU about how there's nothing reliable in a databook, but now he's defending how it's okay to use facts placed in a databook because it happens to be in favor of the debate he's in and it's helping him win. If we went by databook stats, Haku would be slower than Kiba, since Kiba scored a 4.5 and Haku only scored a 4. Where's your logic there? Kiba isn't faster than Haku. They may be around the same speed, but Haku is clearly at least on par with Kiba. The inconsistencies in the books aren't minor, they're major. So unless you give me an exact feat that proves Kiba is whatever a 4.5 translates to, I'm going to take the role of assuming that you're out of feats and just using the bull databook stats. You keep probing me for feats that Chouji is fast, but meanwhile, you're giving me asinine statements about how Kiba is fast because Kishi intended him to be. http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/2d6mz611.png

So, since Kiba got wreaked by Sound 4, he has improved now, so he could solo one of the most powerful people in the Narutoverse at the moment? (power meaning strength.) ;);););), Chouji doesn't have to do anything. All he has to do is wait for Kiba to try to "blitz" him and deck him. It's not that hard to see someone, as fast as they are and have them run into your arm. The point is, you're really not presenting any other feats or logic other than the databooks, and you're also relying on the fact that Kiba has PROBABLY improved over the time skip. Guess what? That doesn't always happen. If you haven't noticed, PTS Neji and TS Neji are practically the same strength. The only difference is that TS Neji's dick is bigger. Just because they aged a little doesn't mean that they're automatically ten times stronger than they were before, just because. We've seen Neji fight multiple times after the time skip, and we still haven't seen anything. A better example, Shino. Shino was weak, and he's still weak. But since he went through the time skip, he must automatically be stronger now, right? Kurenai didn't get any stronger, Hinata barely got stronger, Sakura just learned how to heal and punch a little harder, maybe a little bit of reaction time feats, and the majority of the original Konoha Genin really didn't take very much out of the time skip.


btw, the only reason I responded was because some immature ass negged me to admit defeat, so I decided to reply, TU. http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/qzlk7p.png

And if this debate reaches Saturday and I don't reply, it's because I'm on vacation, but I'll subscribe to the thread and reply to it when I come back.

Ranting over for now.

Phoenix Wright
08-19-2011, 08:13 AM
Retaliation Neg brought me here Shikahttp://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/lmao.gif

At least you replied.

Since that's your guys debate I'm not gonna butt in.. but there's one thing out of your rant on how for some reason rookies don't get stronger. Shino was weak, and he's still weak. But since he went through the time skip, he must automatically be stronger now, right? So all of the rookies aren't stronger now, like they wouldn't train during the entire course of 3 years just because they haven't been on screen to show what they did?

And lol@ Chouji being one of the strongest in the Narutoverse(even in strength terms), I just picked a couple random things to respond to, I don't want to turn it into a debate since like I said that was your guys.

Unless you want me to.http://www.narutoforums.com/images/smilies/series3/2z7exox.png So many contradictions and flaws, so little time, say you want me to, say it. http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/15gch6u.png

Shikamaru Nara
08-19-2011, 08:58 AM
You realize that I have a life and I can't reply instantly like you, so it was deserved. http://www.narutoforums.com/images/smilies/series3/2z7exox.png

One of the strongest yeah.
But what did they do? We don't know. Don't use feats that don't exist.

Amano Yukiteru
08-19-2011, 12:35 PM
HE HAD IMPAIRED VISION!

How on earth do you hit something or avoid something that you can't see up until about two seconds before the person or thing hits you? Put ANY character in that situation and I will guarantee you that they would not be able to have avoided the attack. Picture it this way, you were playing Call of Duty, and you got flashed. You can't see, and your hearing is being buzzed out by that annoying beeping noise. You do one of two things: you spray random bullets, or you stand still and wait for the flash to subside, even though you know you're going to die. But you can't seen, and the other person can see exactly where you are. Put under those circumstances, who do you think would win any sort of fight? A gun fight, or whatever. When your senses are taken out, there's no possible way for you to win something, unless the other person is handicapped the same way you are. Then it comes down to terms of strength. Put simply, had Naruto been able to see, you would not have been able to predict what happened, because he would've had a chance to actually fight instead of Kiba running around, blitzing him like a little ;););););) while Naruto was inside of his smoke so that he clearly couldn't see anything. I just see it that Naruto would've been able to win, had Kiba not had bombs. You're stating the obvious. Of course Kiba blitzed, because the more Naruto moved, the easier he was able to see where he was, and Naruto couldn't do jackshit about it mainly because he was already unable to see and Kiba had a full view of whatever was going on within the smoke. You really think Naruto couldn't have blitzed Kiba if Kiba couldn't see in the smoke? Or do you think that Naruto was really that slow, that he couldn't blitz a basically stagnant character?

How isn't it? Kishi clearly can't measure speed on a scale of .5-5, or whatever he does if he doesn't even know how to evenly balance the character's speeds. Sure, whatever, Kishi intends for them to be around the same speed, but clearly he doesn't intend for them to be that far apart in speed based on the numbers. If he really intended Kiba and Itachi to be around the same speed, he would've proven that Kiba is faster. You know what I don't like about debating? People use things when it's convenient for them. For example, I have heard countless rants from TU about how there's nothing reliable in a databook, but now he's defending how it's okay to use facts placed in a databook because it happens to be in favor of the debate he's in and it's helping him win. If we went by databook stats, Haku would be slower than Kiba, since Kiba scored a 4.5 and Haku only scored a 4. Where's your logic there? Kiba isn't faster than Haku. They may be around the same speed, but Haku is clearly at least on par with Kiba. The inconsistencies in the books aren't minor, they're major. So unless you give me an exact feat that proves Kiba is whatever a 4.5 translates to, I'm going to take the role of assuming that you're out of feats and just using the bull databook stats. You keep probing me for feats that Chouji is fast, but meanwhile, you're giving me asinine statements about how Kiba is fast because Kishi intended him to be. http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/2d6mz611.png

So, since Kiba got wreaked by Sound 4, he has improved now, so he could solo one of the most powerful people in the Narutoverse at the moment? (power meaning strength.) ;);););), Chouji doesn't have to do anything. All he has to do is wait for Kiba to try to "blitz" him and deck him. It's not that hard to see someone, as fast as they are and have them run into your arm. The point is, you're really not presenting any other feats or logic other than the databooks, and you're also relying on the fact that Kiba has PROBABLY improved over the time skip. Guess what? That doesn't always happen. If you haven't noticed, PTS Neji and TS Neji are practically the same strength. The only difference is that TS Neji's dick is bigger. Just because they aged a little doesn't mean that they're automatically ten times stronger than they were before, just because. We've seen Neji fight multiple times after the time skip, and we still haven't seen anything. A better example, Shino. Shino was weak, and he's still weak. But since he went through the time skip, he must automatically be stronger now, right? Kurenai didn't get any stronger, Hinata barely got stronger, Sakura just learned how to heal and punch a little harder, maybe a little bit of reaction time feats, and the majority of the original Konoha Genin really didn't take very much out of the time skip.


btw, the only reason I responded was because some immature ass negged me to admit defeat, so I decided to reply, TU. http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/qzlk7p.png

And if this debate reaches Saturday and I don't reply, it's because I'm on vacation, but I'll subscribe to the thread and reply to it when I come back.

Ranting over for now.

Again, smoke bombs are standard equipment for him at that point too. Even without them, Kiba was still outspeeding Naruto. You seem to be ignoring the fact that a VERY small portion of the fight even involved the smoke bombs. Chapter 75 page 8, Naruto got blitzed just by Kiba alone. Chapter 76 page 9, after attempts of dodging Kiba and Akamaru together, the two find an opening and nail Naruto with a Gatsuuga hit. Chapter 77 page 9, again without Akamaru, Kiba blitzed behind Naruto and without that fart would have gotten a final hit. Now if Kiba had intent to kill, there were many times where Naruto struggled to get up and ranted all "zomg don't underestimate me" and such, but of course he didn't attack during those times because of overconfidence and because even if he didn't care for Naruto, he isn't the type to kill someone he knew from childhood.

So in short, because it's inconvenient for you that Kishi finds Kiba to be fast you're going to say the databooks are complete crap, which is utterly foolish. Regarding Haku's speed, Haku is just plain overrated. Even Wave Arc Sasuke was blitzing Base Haku, in mirrors Sasuke was keeping up once he got Sharingan, heck even Lee with weights is faster considering Sasuke used Sharingan and still got blitzed by Lee. People seem to get this idea that Haku is a top tier speedster when he's not, the only reason his speed seemed so godly impressive was the fact that he was a moderately fast character in a really, REALLY early point in the series where everyone with feats, barring like Kakashi, showed little speed in the long run. In any case, databooks or not, I've given Kiba speed feats from freaking Chunin Exams arc, and I still have yet to see any more than one impressive Choji speed feat and that was solely by powerscaling and relied heavily on assumptions.

Choji is so heavily wanked in this forum, just because he happened to get another scene with Butterfly people think he's somehow the godliest character in Narutoverse since Kabuto spammed Edo Tensei, yet it just doesn't work. People think that Choji was soloing everybody in the war when he had significant help from his allies, and some of the opponents even helped with fighting against their abilities in ways such as telling them what they were going to do, how they were going to attack, etc. Unless you honestly believe that Choji could ordinarily solo Hizashi or Kakuzu. Furthermore, Kiba being "wrecked" by Sakon and Ukon was him getting trolled by Sakon and Ukon conveniently having the ability to separate, because if they had not then by the point Kiba used Fang Wolf Fang he would have defeated any other member of the Sound Four. As for Choji, we saw him have to use every single pill, with only the red one giving him enough strength to defeat Jirobo, who was the weakest in terms of overall power. And that's impressive.....how?

That logic is terribly wrong because you're assuming that, aside from MAYBE Kurenai, everybody was sitting on their ass doing nothing for three years, and somehow got promoted to Chunin, Neji as Jonin. And that makes sense in what ways at all? Do you honestly believe that SOLELY because Choji happened to get some feats, that somehow he is the only Konoha 11 person aside from Naruto to have improved? Where the hell is the logic in that? Oh right, so apparently Neji hasn't gotten stronger at all despite the fact that he was chosen in order to become a Jonin. Yes because apparently a guy who even at the freaking Chunin Exams was not decided to be promoted ended up sitting around doing nothing, not getting stronger, in spite of him even stating that his determination was to GET stronger, and somehow in three years he ended up not only becoming a Chunin, but even a Jonin. That's perfect logic there, makes perfect sense that because they haven't shown it, they somehow haven't gotten stronger just because it's convenient for you. You say Shino didn't improve, then what do you call Insect Sphere? As for Sakura "just learning how to heal and punch a little harder", ELL OHH ELL. More like went from useless to one of the stronger kunoichi in her age group.

You know what's stupid about this feats mentality? The fact that it ignores logic and that you say "just because I haven't seen it, it isn't true". So then I guess that means Hashirama and Tobirama apparently aren't all that great since their feats are pretty sub-par, yet we are both very aware of how great they are considered. That means that 100 chapters ago or so, Minato would lose to Tenten because he hadn't shown anything and therefore somehow couldn't do anything. I guess that means that Guy was unable to use the Eight Gates pre-skip because, well, he hadn't shown it.

See how stupid this is getting? That's what your feats mentality is implying. Meanwhile, while you rant about how you still need to see feats from Kiba, I STILL have yet to see ANY decisive speed feats for Choji that prove he would react to both Kiba and Akamaru drilling at him at the beginning of the match, at such a close distance.

Though with the whole BG mentality I bet you'd say "Lol Choji goes butterfly giant and stomps" despite that being completely out of character, while Kiba would apparently not be allowed to use Garouga if Choji could do that.

Phoenix Wright
08-19-2011, 05:43 PM
You realize that I have a life and I can't reply instantly like you, so it was deserved. http://www.narutoforums.com/images/smilies/series3/2z7exox.png

One of the strongest yeah.
But what did they do? We don't know. Don't use feats that don't exist.
You were never gonna respond, it's all thanks to me.http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/hm.png

Remember that woman Uchiha who was famous throughout all the world with her genjutsu? So basically just because she's featless she loses to Tenten who has feats? That's the retarded BG Logic sir, and it fails, hard, in most cases. Rookies obviously improved, Kiba only that much further considering how much he improved during such short time before.

So basically how do you mean one of the strongest, out of currently alive characters, total Narutoverse, maybe ET...?

Please say I can respond to your big post so I don't seem like I can't or something, I can have fun with this http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/emotawesomepm9.gif

Super Sanin 3
08-19-2011, 05:51 PM
I thought Choji changed the most :???:

The max we can assume for Kiba in this case is that his base traits are abit more powerful (faster, fang passing fang is more powerful, all the basic things